Size of the drivers does nothing to the sound of the kick-drum.Thanks guys.
Current speaker I have are 2x 8" and just don't have the kick I'm after.
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A ported design as most pro audio woofers seem to be more suited to this alignment and have much more output in the 100-200Hz region. My only concern was whether the extra group delay would cause issue when integrating with my subs. FYI my subs are sealed and will be placed throughout the room to give best frequency response in main listening positions
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I wish you could hear my tiny 2x3.3"sealed +mini planar tops supported with 2x 8" or a 12" sealed sub........ While I made this little system for the great mids and highs, most people first comment on the great bass.
A bass note's harmonics are played through the mains/tops and it might well be that as we hear much better in that region, that they define the sound of bass more then we know or talk about.
I remember reading about someone making a 3kHz EQ adjustment to alter the sound of the kick........ might make more sense then I thought at the time of reading it.
The room, speaker positioning, crossover 'point'(region) and phase do have a big influence in the kick (and overall SQ).
Speaker positioning rule is: place speakers less then 1/4th or more then 2 wavelengths of the frequencies they emit from each other and half of that to boundaries.
If you have an 'average' (not very big) living room;
put the sub(s) in a (1) corner (driver close to a wall), raise the x-over to 125-200hz (depending on the height of your room and distance between the mains) place the mains closer to the walls and the kick is probably back.
If the bass is to dry, pull one of the subs out of the corner towards the mains until you like the sound; bass will fatten.
Make sure that the distances from the woofer to all walls, (including floor and ceiling) are all different and no multiples of each other.
Ported mains, tuned at or just below xover point give phase problems. Ported in general sounds less tight, so go sealed especially with your sealed subs. (plug the ports of your current mains with a towel to test)
Have a look at (and listen to, if possible) a 'classic' fullrange 3 way pa speaker: 12"/15"-6"-1" horn.
They sound much better then the 2 way competition in de mids. Especially when the volume goes up. Smaller drivers are lighter, have wider off axis response and thus can play with more detail and cross higher.
The lower the CD horn can play, the more you miss at the upper end. (look at off axis response above 10kHz: often laser beam like narrow.
Have a look at (and listen to, if possible) a 'classic' fullrange 3 way pa speaker: 12"/15"-6"-1" horn.
They sound much better then the 2 way competition in de mids. Especially when the volume goes up. Smaller drivers are lighter, have wider off axis response and thus can play with more detail and cross higher.
The lower the CD horn can play, the more you miss at the upper end. (look at off axis response above 10kHz: often laser beam like narrow.
I would strongly agree that when playing at high volume 3 ways are superior but its not the case that all horns that play low have poor HF dispersion. Its also not the case that the compression drivers exit diameter always limits HF dispersion. My understanding is that it would if the wave at the throat was plane wave but this is often far from true and that if the wave is instead shaped into a circular cap high frequency dispersion is much better than the plane wave case. This is not part of the horn design but the design of the phase plug of the compression driver that influences this. Diffraction whether intentional or not also almost always occurring. If we look at this polar data from a k402 with 4592ND (2" throat) we see if has wide dispersion with a minimum of ~60 degrees:
90 degrees narrowing to 60 degrees is allready 1/3 less in overall output mostly in the indirect sound.
And then have a look at the vertical dispersion....... if you can find any as they often look horrible and even more narrowing at the top like 10 degrees, much like a line tweeter like a planar, amt or ribbon.
There might be a few (often expensive) exceptions, but they all have to work with(in) the same physics. I don't know about them and I am no horn expert.
//Edit: have a look at the bottom graph of the ($10) mini planar I mentioned in my previous post: https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/275-083--dayton-audio-ptmini-6-specifications.pdf And that extends to 40kHz and is the result of it's minimal width. I could eq the overal output but it sounds just right sloping down like it is.
For anyone wanting to use these; minimal xover for these is 5kHz as they distort lower.
And the 3.3" (€10 at Thomann) drivers: FRS 8 M - 8 Ohm | Visaton again look at the bottom graph.
And then have a look at the vertical dispersion....... if you can find any as they often look horrible and even more narrowing at the top like 10 degrees, much like a line tweeter like a planar, amt or ribbon.
There might be a few (often expensive) exceptions, but they all have to work with(in) the same physics. I don't know about them and I am no horn expert.
//Edit: have a look at the bottom graph of the ($10) mini planar I mentioned in my previous post: https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/275-083--dayton-audio-ptmini-6-specifications.pdf And that extends to 40kHz and is the result of it's minimal width. I could eq the overal output but it sounds just right sloping down like it is.
For anyone wanting to use these; minimal xover for these is 5kHz as they distort lower.
And the 3.3" (€10 at Thomann) drivers: FRS 8 M - 8 Ohm | Visaton again look at the bottom graph.
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That polar map is exceptional good, going down to 60 degrees is a small anomaly compared to a typical constant directivity horn, I challenge you to find better especially over such a wide range. The K402 is also good in vertical:
(scale should be degrees not dB)
I'm not saying that such performance is common but it is possible. Many people have told me that the directivity of compression drivers is constrained by the exit diameter as if it where a vibrating piston but as you can see from these results that's incorrect.
I'm not saying that such performance is common but it is possible. Many people have told me that the directivity of compression drivers is constrained by the exit diameter as if it where a vibrating piston but as you can see from these results that's incorrect.
That indeed looks much better then most if not all I have seen.
Professional Theater 2-Way Speakers - Premium Cinema Audio | Klipsch
Have you seen their size? No need for a separate mid driver. 🙂
Anyone an idea of cost?
Professional Theater 2-Way Speakers - Premium Cinema Audio | Klipsch
Have you seen their size? No need for a separate mid driver. 🙂
Anyone an idea of cost?
There is also the other criteria to keep acoustic sources within 1/4 wavelength so they constructively superposition throughout all positions which i calculated to result in a crossover <1147Hz.
1147 wavelength is 0.3 Meters
Anyone an idea of cost?
I looked into this a few months back to see if I could snag a pair (K402) and on some message boards they mentioned you'd have to buy the horn with compression driver. Also you'd have to specially request a pair. I don't have the link on hand but I believe it was close to $600 per horn+comp.
= 12" driver1147 wavelength is 0.3 Meters
That is if you want the widest vertical dispersion. If you cross higher you get vertical off axis narrowing (lobes), but only in 1 direction with M&T
With MTM you get the narrowing both ways. I use this to match the vertical dispersion of the used tweeter at x-over 'point'.
Thx, for the price indication mlee. +shipping (they are huge), import duties and tax about 1k each... 🙁
1147 wavelength is 0.3 Meters
of course, my mistake I had unity horns on the mind. Spacing up to a wavelength is OK as long as the appropriate phase shift is applied. Still don't want to go over that frequency!
= 12" driver
Thx, for the price indication mlee. +shipping (they are huge), import duties and tax about 1k each... 🙁
you could make your own:
Klipsch K402 replica build - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
tbh you could get most of the performance from just a dual flare conical.
you could make your own:
Klipsch K402 replica build - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
tbh you could get most of the performance from just a dual flare conical.
Very cool!
I remember reading about someone making a 3kHz EQ adjustment to alter the sound of the kick........ might make more sense then I thought at the time of reading it.
Particularly in modern rock/pop music, the kick is often mixed with a lot of boost around 3-5kHz to give it a clear attack, so yes, that is a frequency often considered when EQin a mix. In the more extreme cases, it becomes a very distinct slap as in some of the faster metal genres.
To that end, many mics intended for use on bass drums are designed with a contoured frequency response to get part way towards that kind of tone even before touching the console's EQ knobs. This example is form the Shure Beta52:
Thx David, now I got the whole story. Makes more sense to me now.
Found this; kick drum has even higher frequencies then a violin....
Found this; kick drum has even higher frequencies then a violin....
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I'd disagree with that frequency chart a little bit - (if close mic'd in particular) a violin will have some frequency content at least an octave higher than that from the bow drawing across the strings.
You wouldn't notice perhaps if you're used to hearing them from a distance, but if you've ever played the instrument you'd know it was missing.
Indeed, most acoustic instruments will have partial content like that up to at least 10kHz, often higher. It doesn't form part of the note per se but does represent a lot of the detail and "texture" of the sound, to use an untechnical term.
You wouldn't notice perhaps if you're used to hearing them from a distance, but if you've ever played the instrument you'd know it was missing.
Indeed, most acoustic instruments will have partial content like that up to at least 10kHz, often higher. It doesn't form part of the note per se but does represent a lot of the detail and "texture" of the sound, to use an untechnical term.
Ok, so I've been looking at some of the Faital drivers and are thinking along the lines of the following.
Woofer
Faital 12FH520
Ported box approximately 60 litres and tuned to 50Hz
2x 4" round ports. From memory I think the first port resonance frequency was calculated to be around 680Hz.
Tweeter
Faital compression driver.
1.4" with Polymer cone.
Options are HF142, HF144 or HF146.
The HF1440 looks to maybe be a better choice, however they don't seem to be available. Does anyone know where they can be purchased from?
Driver Spacing
I can get the center to center measurements between woofer and tweeter to a minimum of just under 280mm and are aiming to get them as close as possible.
Crossover
Initially I'll be aiming for a crossover frequency under 1kHz if possibly.
Crossover will be active; likely via miniDSP as I already have one.
Crossover frequencies, slopes, etc are therefore flexible and will be determined later.
Anyway, that's the plan so far. Please critique.
Woofer
Faital 12FH520
Ported box approximately 60 litres and tuned to 50Hz
2x 4" round ports. From memory I think the first port resonance frequency was calculated to be around 680Hz.
Tweeter
Faital compression driver.
1.4" with Polymer cone.
Options are HF142, HF144 or HF146.
The HF1440 looks to maybe be a better choice, however they don't seem to be available. Does anyone know where they can be purchased from?
Driver Spacing
I can get the center to center measurements between woofer and tweeter to a minimum of just under 280mm and are aiming to get them as close as possible.
Crossover
Initially I'll be aiming for a crossover frequency under 1kHz if possibly.
Crossover will be active; likely via miniDSP as I already have one.
Crossover frequencies, slopes, etc are therefore flexible and will be determined later.
Anyway, that's the plan so far. Please critique.
The HF1440 doesn't seem to be available at all YET. You are definitley not the first one waiting for this to be avilable ! 😉
…. and people like us are definiltely not those who will get the first production ones …..
Regards
Charles
P.S: I currently use the HF146 on a 18sound XT1464 waveguide and I like it a lot. With your 12" you could use a smaller horn/waveguide than I with double 15".
PPS: This one got a lot of positive reviews lately (not everyone will like the Altec inspired retro design though): Model 12 - dynamikks
…. and people like us are definiltely not those who will get the first production ones …..
Regards
Charles
P.S: I currently use the HF146 on a 18sound XT1464 waveguide and I like it a lot. With your 12" you could use a smaller horn/waveguide than I with double 15".
PPS: This one got a lot of positive reviews lately (not everyone will like the Altec inspired retro design though): Model 12 - dynamikks
Ok, so I've been looking at some of the Faital drivers and are thinking along the lines of the following.
Woofer
Faital 12FH520
Ported box approximately 60 litres and tuned to 50Hz
2x 4" round ports. From memory I think the first port resonance frequency was calculated to be around 680Hz.
Tweeter
Faital compression driver.
1.4" with Polymer cone.
Options are HF142, HF144 or HF146.
The HF1440 looks to maybe be a better choice, however they don't seem to be available. Does anyone know where they can be purchased from?
Driver Spacing
I can get the center to center measurements between woofer and tweeter to a minimum of just under 280mm and are aiming to get them as close as possible.
Crossover
Initially I'll be aiming for a crossover frequency under 1kHz if possibly.
Crossover will be active; likely via miniDSP as I already have one.
Crossover frequencies, slopes, etc are therefore flexible and will be determined later.
Anyway, that's the plan so far. Please critique.
I have a pair of Fostex FW 305s woofers used for about two hours in the original packing boxes.I am in Australia.
Ok, so I've been looking at some of the Faital drivers and are thinking along the lines of the following.
Woofer
Faital 12FH520
Ported box approximately 60 litres and tuned to 50Hz
2x 4" round ports. From memory I think the first port resonance frequency was calculated to be around 680Hz.
Tweeter
Faital compression driver.
1.4" with Polymer cone.
Options are HF142, HF144 or HF146.
The HF1440 looks to maybe be a better choice, however they don't seem to be available. Does anyone know where they can be purchased from?
Driver Spacing
I can get the center to center measurements between woofer and tweeter to a minimum of just under 280mm and are aiming to get them as close as possible.
Crossover
Initially I'll be aiming for a crossover frequency under 1kHz if possibly.
Crossover will be active; likely via miniDSP as I already have one.
Crossover frequencies, slopes, etc are therefore flexible and will be determined later.
Anyway, that's the plan so far. Please critique.
Great thread! Did you finish this build and if so, with which drivers?
This thread has much that I've been looking for. My target is a BMS 4593HE or 4594HE coax cd in RCF HF94 horn (for it's pattern) crossed to a ~12" mid-bass, which are in turn crossed to existing sealed stereo subs. I'm going all active with dsp. What eludes me is which woofer should I use or which parameters to look for?
Most info is about ported 12" without high-pass for separate subs. I'm looking to build sealed mid-bass in a relatively small enclosure. Bandpassing ca. 80-800, depending on the woofer capabilities. The coax cd is rated for down to 300 Hz, but I don't want so big horn that loads that low. How critical is the enclose volume? I've simulated boxes down to minimal dimensions that can house the driver, but that doesn't feel plausible.
I've read a lot good about many drivers, like Faital 12PR320, but since I'm going for end-game speakers, I wouldn't mind spending a bit more, if that gives better absolute sounds quality for that frequency range. Any thoughts on driver like BMS 12N810? Looks good on paper.. AE TD12 range looks good, but with shipping to Europe that's above comfortable price range.
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