Since I have to solder something and it's not easy, my thoughts fly to the new DAC. I know that I'm embarking on a big project, so I'm starting from scratch, from making a PCB, rectifier, regulator, analog stage, digital inputs. I already have the complete analog stage and power supply solved from previous DACs and that's no problem. The analog stage with tubes is not a problem either.
The problem is which new generation DAC to choose, AKM or ESS, ESS is easier to implement, but I've got my eye on the AKM AK4191 and AK4499EX.
And one more thing bothers me, will this be better than the old school, specifically the eight PCM1702s that I'm playing now?
This question is difficult to answer, I know. To me, the old school sound is somehow more natural and pleasant, closer to analog sources. But I also know that the new generation is often built only according to instructions from DS, I have not seen any sophisticated regulators and analog stages in practice so far.
The problem is which new generation DAC to choose, AKM or ESS, ESS is easier to implement, but I've got my eye on the AKM AK4191 and AK4499EX.
And one more thing bothers me, will this be better than the old school, specifically the eight PCM1702s that I'm playing now?
This question is difficult to answer, I know. To me, the old school sound is somehow more natural and pleasant, closer to analog sources. But I also know that the new generation is often built only according to instructions from DS, I have not seen any sophisticated regulators and analog stages in practice so far.
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I have built DIY dacs with both ES9039Q2M and AK4191+AK4499. Neither of those uses datasheet output stages. Both share the same format and size so I can use the same chassis for both. Here is the ES9039Q2M version: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dac-gallery.166807/post-7761366
IME ES9039Q2M is clearly the best bang for buck currently. Relatively easy to implement, good sound and very good performance (actually better than ES9039PRO). AK4191+AK4499 is also good but much more difficult to implement and quite a bit more expensive.
Both deliver transparent and neutral sound which I prefer. I have old school diy dacs (TDA1541, AD1862, PMD100+PCM1702) and newer school diy dacs (RTZ) but I have found my ES9039Q2M and AK4191+AK4499 better. Not so much for the sound but they are much more versatile.
IME ES9039Q2M is clearly the best bang for buck currently. Relatively easy to implement, good sound and very good performance (actually better than ES9039PRO). AK4191+AK4499 is also good but much more difficult to implement and quite a bit more expensive.
Both deliver transparent and neutral sound which I prefer. I have old school diy dacs (TDA1541, AD1862, PMD100+PCM1702) and newer school diy dacs (RTZ) but I have found my ES9039Q2M and AK4191+AK4499 better. Not so much for the sound but they are much more versatile.
I agree.
Today, 9039q2m is good and the simplest solution.
4191+new4499 is excellent!
Old 4497 was very nice, new4497 haven't heard (IMHO no sense to use, because 4191+4499 exists).
If to listen just DSD, or to use PCM>DSD conversion, Rohm's BD34352 is good.
(34301 also good, but the price like the wing from F22, 34302 I haven’t used or heard yet).
From the "old school" - maybe PCM56 or AD1862.
Alex.
Today, 9039q2m is good and the simplest solution.
4191+new4499 is excellent!
Old 4497 was very nice, new4497 haven't heard (IMHO no sense to use, because 4191+4499 exists).
If to listen just DSD, or to use PCM>DSD conversion, Rohm's BD34352 is good.
(34301 also good, but the price like the wing from F22, 34302 I haven’t used or heard yet).
From the "old school" - maybe PCM56 or AD1862.
Alex.
just a 2 cents vaccin boost
For now my highly modded TDA1541A sounds better than the AD1862, but I am not disparing to make it better as I spent time to refine the layout process from the pcb.
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So what ultimatly the one you prefer for the sound subjectivly of the three you worked on : ESS9038EQ, AK4499 (one or to chip in front of the AK4191), or Rtz DAC ? @bohrok2610.
I know @LTK is prefering Marcel RTZ sligthy bettr than his TDA1541A modded DAC, and someone I also trust @Joseph K liked a lot his DIY japanese AK4499 with opa 1656 + opa828. Which for sure must be sounding different than a full Bjt output stage like the often seen opa1611or also an opa1633. My TDA1541 DAC is way more 'complex' but he has iirc a two crown chip and I have a Taiwan 1998 which is on the very transparent side vs the others TDA DAC 1541A chips I have (S1, normal grade, from Europe, ). take the testimonial with pridence, I only listen to NOS and voice my DACS to balance that !
Very hard to talk about the dac chip without talking about the surrounding layout !
I know @LTK is prefering Marcel RTZ sligthy bettr than his TDA1541A modded DAC, and someone I also trust @Joseph K liked a lot his DIY japanese AK4499 with opa 1656 + opa828. Which for sure must be sounding different than a full Bjt output stage like the often seen opa1611or also an opa1633. My TDA1541 DAC is way more 'complex' but he has iirc a two crown chip and I have a Taiwan 1998 which is on the very transparent side vs the others TDA DAC 1541A chips I have (S1, normal grade, from Europe, ). take the testimonial with pridence, I only listen to NOS and voice my DACS to balance that !
Very hard to talk about the dac chip without talking about the surrounding layout !
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@grunf , your first problem to solve is to give up the two layers etching process you do at home ang long wires around the dac chip. and learn a pcb editor, like Kickad 9. or work with yoours afficinados like Vunce for instance that practice PCB Cading already. But Kickad 9.0 is very straigth forward.
Tube I/V from a beginning passive I/V parts migth be problematic for linearity and high resolution if you work with a nowadays high res current output dac chip.
Tube I/V from a beginning passive I/V parts migth be problematic for linearity and high resolution if you work with a nowadays high res current output dac chip.
Now is there nowadays dac chip with voltage output good enough that could be directly tubed is maybe also something to consider ????
When I build a new dac I always make AB (not ABx) comparisons with my existing dacs. With the best dacs I have (ES9039Q2M, not ES9038Q2M which is clearly worse, AK4191+AK449 or RTZ) the differences in sound are so small that I'm not able to reliably pick them apart with random music. And if I cannot reliably detect a difference I cannot have a preference purely based on sound. But there are other factors that come into play. E.g. I prefer to have both analog and digital volume control. Also ES9039Q2M and AK4191+AK4499 have top notch performance at any sample rate. Even at DSD512 where RTZ already has issues with noise. Another factor is price: my ES9039Q2M with SOTA headphone amp, chassis and remote control is less than 350 EUR, AK4191+AK4499 less than 450 EUR. Neither requires expensive atto-seconds clocks for good sound.
thanks for the correction, yes sorry I wanted to write ES9039EQM. I do the same for the AB, but only with known reccordings I use for almost 20 years for some. And always also fresher ones more randomly, just in case of self biasing on the main always used list. Then others feedbacks when feasible.
Good to know for the clock and analog control. I assume indeed you can not use digital attenuation with 16 bits material without oversampling them before, or ois just because the number of bits ?
Did you please compare the materials like 16/44 not oversampled through them (in case the option to bypass the upsampling and intermodulation is feasible).
I like the isea of the cheap 9O39EQM but its soldering package and am attracted by the 8 channel possibilities of the 9039pro for active speaker with something like camilladsp or a Nuke with Sygnalyst. In another way the AK4499 & his input filter are easier for diy soldering without oven or pcb plant assembly. Btw for that prices you gave, was it for the part sand pcbs/case you populated in your oven or was it made with an extra by the pcb printer ?
Look forward to see final Grunf choice about the dac chip... It is certainly worthing too to swapp the spidf for a cleaner front end like USB or RJ45.
Good to know for the clock and analog control. I assume indeed you can not use digital attenuation with 16 bits material without oversampling them before, or ois just because the number of bits ?
Did you please compare the materials like 16/44 not oversampled through them (in case the option to bypass the upsampling and intermodulation is feasible).
I like the isea of the cheap 9O39EQM but its soldering package and am attracted by the 8 channel possibilities of the 9039pro for active speaker with something like camilladsp or a Nuke with Sygnalyst. In another way the AK4499 & his input filter are easier for diy soldering without oven or pcb plant assembly. Btw for that prices you gave, was it for the part sand pcbs/case you populated in your oven or was it made with an extra by the pcb printer ?
Look forward to see final Grunf choice about the dac chip... It is certainly worthing too to swapp the spidf for a cleaner front end like USB or RJ45.
@LTK and I PM periodically, so I know where his RTZ is at right now. Its still on Crystek clocks and using Marcel's original output stage with my slowdown mod, with the last stage bypassed, and using only a SE output. IOW, I believe he has at least 2 or 3 significant levels more to go to be able to really see what RTZ is capable of.
Also, IIUC, @Joseph K preferred Andrea Mori DAC_Lite over the AK4499 dac. All the folks there also preferred DAC_Lite over Andrea's DSD dac at the time. Since then I have found problems with ferrites in power filters in multiple Andrea products, and also with the DSD dac having only mono Vref so the stereo wasn't what it could have been. Since I have all those Andrea products here, I can say Marcel's RTZ dac is now clearly ahead of all the progress I am aware of Andrea having made. Unfortunately due to Andrea's illness I don't know if he will ever have a chance to be in the lead again.
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Dunno where and what @Joseph K do those days, Iirc he needed to focus more on his daily job. We were exchanging about AD1862 and I also helped on his TDA1541A with my tips just before last summer but never had feedback on that. I think he had to focus on his job just after the holydays and hope he is in good health.
If you are into tubes, you can also decide not to use a DAC chip at all, but to use tubes for the digital-to-analog conversion. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/valve-dac-from-linear-audio-volume-13.308860/
Grunf, why not the pcm1794?
I have two ess9039q2m dacs and a dual pcm1794 dac side by side for 2 months now. And I can not decide which I like more.
But for DIY the pcm1794 is the best to solder.
Both ess9039q2m dacs sound the same, (my opinion). Detailed, dynamic, revealing every aspect. The pcm1794 with his tube outputstage does the same but somehow more fluid(easier).
I have two ess9039q2m dacs and a dual pcm1794 dac side by side for 2 months now. And I can not decide which I like more.
But for DIY the pcm1794 is the best to solder.
Both ess9039q2m dacs sound the same, (my opinion). Detailed, dynamic, revealing every aspect. The pcm1794 with his tube outputstage does the same but somehow more fluid(easier).
Hard enough to admit but it seems ES9039Q2M has the best cards today with regards to price/quality and simplicity. It is indeed better than the darn ES9038Q2M as found in about every cheap device. It is not really better than the old AK4497 though so possibly the new AK4497SEQ has strong cards. I just can not understand why AKM produces stuff that competes with its own other products?!
Old school stuff is popular for the wrong reasons it seems. I would not bother with the nth project with only the obsolete TH ICs being as expensive as a complete new DAC.
If you ask opinions you will get a few thousand and the thread is likely going the usual direction. I think you should define what you want (unbalanced/bal, USB/coax/Toslink and such) and just develop what you like and why/if you want to publish it here. As you know there are no (zero, 0) DIY DAC projects with recent chips and no Group Buys/PCBs of such a project with enough documentation for the average builder so you would/could definitely fill a wide gap. If the project will be a single board DAC with PSU board so a usable practical easy to build audio device and not half a computer I wish to sponsor your project with regards to power transformers if you like.
Old school stuff is popular for the wrong reasons it seems. I would not bother with the nth project with only the obsolete TH ICs being as expensive as a complete new DAC.
If you ask opinions you will get a few thousand and the thread is likely going the usual direction. I think you should define what you want (unbalanced/bal, USB/coax/Toslink and such) and just develop what you like and why/if you want to publish it here. As you know there are no (zero, 0) DIY DAC projects with recent chips and no Group Buys/PCBs of such a project with enough documentation for the average builder so you would/could definitely fill a wide gap. If the project will be a single board DAC with PSU board so a usable practical easy to build audio device and not half a computer I wish to sponsor your project with regards to power transformers if you like.
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Best dacs are not using dac chips anymore.
The AK4499 is sounding but is a r2r inside withdemodualor outside.
An expensive SMSL at 3500 euros is made with pcm1704.Older chips sound good not because they are vintage but because they are r2r based and still 99% of discs libraries are 16 bits. But for the most recent true native 24/192 reccordings and few streaming services having them.
Through all is not a problem but if you are obssessiv with EM compatibility. Anyway your smd is somewhat tht as the burried vias are not yet cheap. The main problem is the rarity and price of the good oldest nla PCM chips and the fact it will be better not socketed.
They shine because we have better made front end now and not only the ubiquitous spidf which is disseapering by the end of cd transport and the everywhere comming of hdmi arc for TV.
64 bits ic are comming like the winter to dead the recent dac chips perhaps for a finer volume management.
The ESS9039 Q2M is less than 16 euros w/o VAT and the form factor problem can be solved by a precise 10°C step oven. Or soldered at JLCPCB.
The mist complexcpart of this project is the front end as usual.
But some recent dac chip have embeded PEQ possibilities...that is very aytractive too.
YMMV
The AK4499 is sounding but is a r2r inside withdemodualor outside.
An expensive SMSL at 3500 euros is made with pcm1704.Older chips sound good not because they are vintage but because they are r2r based and still 99% of discs libraries are 16 bits. But for the most recent true native 24/192 reccordings and few streaming services having them.
Through all is not a problem but if you are obssessiv with EM compatibility. Anyway your smd is somewhat tht as the burried vias are not yet cheap. The main problem is the rarity and price of the good oldest nla PCM chips and the fact it will be better not socketed.
They shine because we have better made front end now and not only the ubiquitous spidf which is disseapering by the end of cd transport and the everywhere comming of hdmi arc for TV.
64 bits ic are comming like the winter to dead the recent dac chips perhaps for a finer volume management.
The ESS9039 Q2M is less than 16 euros w/o VAT and the form factor problem can be solved by a precise 10°C step oven. Or soldered at JLCPCB.
The mist complexcpart of this project is the front end as usual.
But some recent dac chip have embeded PEQ possibilities...that is very aytractive too.
YMMV
What is it exactly you are trying to say? Nothing bad meant but maybe it would help to have your text translated by Google Translate or something similar.
If it is that older is better and obsolete/unobtainium the very best well this is not the case (they do sell best to the audiophiles) and there are many projects around old stuff but none with current stuff. Time goes in the other direction and so are the devices and technologies before and after DACs. One can object against new developments but they will happen anyway. Your new audio player will play high res, your new TV will be 4K or 8K, your favorite streaming provider will offer 24/96, your new amplifier wil have HDMI ARC etc. etc.
If it is that older is better and obsolete/unobtainium the very best well this is not the case (they do sell best to the audiophiles) and there are many projects around old stuff but none with current stuff. Time goes in the other direction and so are the devices and technologies before and after DACs. One can object against new developments but they will happen anyway. Your new audio player will play high res, your new TV will be 4K or 8K, your favorite streaming provider will offer 24/96, your new amplifier wil have HDMI ARC etc. etc.
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What part don t you understand?
Wr are not talking about industrial process but of a topic talking about one dac made for one enthusiast who asked with reason if a modern dac chip design he want to diy will be better than his actual pcm1702 20 bits with 6 chips or can be more musical?
The question is more than legit as he refined his dac from several years. Many complain todays chip with cheap chi fi are not so good.
Your answer is out of context, he is not asking about monney saved or asked but diy desires.
Imo his dac he talked is more limited by its spidf front end and the layout.
There are already several project here with those modern chips.
Let me know if you don t understand what I say I will translate in german... will try to avoid typo with my big fingers and small smartphone.
Wr are not talking about industrial process but of a topic talking about one dac made for one enthusiast who asked with reason if a modern dac chip design he want to diy will be better than his actual pcm1702 20 bits with 6 chips or can be more musical?
The question is more than legit as he refined his dac from several years. Many complain todays chip with cheap chi fi are not so good.
Your answer is out of context, he is not asking about monney saved or asked but diy desires.
Imo his dac he talked is more limited by its spidf front end and the layout.
There are already several project here with those modern chips.
Let me know if you don t understand what I say I will translate in german... will try to avoid typo with my big fingers and small smartphone.
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Maybe just different but still good?
I think You have to try on Your own...
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there are some very good sounding DAC ICs in between old school (that I am prefer) and these now.
For instance WM8740 in dual mono only, very very good, ES9008 factory settings I2S, Ioutputs no requirement for programming device too, first ESS, and PCM1974 nos mode.
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ES9039Q2M is relatively simple, have option for hardware mode (can be used without additional programing device), much simpler than AK versions,
easy to check out. Consuming less current, so temperature if chip is say normal. compared to other multi dac types from ess...
I would probably going to try this chip.
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