Andy,
I believe you that Chinese dac boards featuring older dac chip models can sound a more pleasing than what ESS and AKM chips sound like in low cost dac boards. (Unfortunately, what's wrong with the latter chips does not necessarily show up well in SINAD type testing.)
While the older dac chip Chinese boards may sound more to your liking, I can tell from looking at pics of the boards how they are designed. Still cheap junk to me, but those older chip designs don't seem to need the best surrounding circuitry to sound not too bad. Seems likely they can be improved some by diy efforts, but to get the best possible sound from the chips would probably still take a total redesign.
I believe you that Chinese dac boards featuring older dac chip models can sound a more pleasing than what ESS and AKM chips sound like in low cost dac boards. (Unfortunately, what's wrong with the latter chips does not necessarily show up well in SINAD type testing.)
While the older dac chip Chinese boards may sound more to your liking, I can tell from looking at pics of the boards how they are designed. Still cheap junk to me, but those older chip designs don't seem to need the best surrounding circuitry to sound not too bad. Seems likely they can be improved some by diy efforts, but to get the best possible sound from the chips would probably still take a total redesign.
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There are many just normal/good inexpensive Chinese DACs, but they are not excellent, unless you don't think they are excellent based on some measurements.
Sorry, I wrote it wrong. There are many good inexpensive Chinese DACs if you believe in their some measurements
My experience with Topping and AK DACs leaves me in no doubt that the older multibit chips are more musical. Mark suggests that "those older chip designs don't seem to need the best surrounding circuitry to sound not too bad. Seems likely they can be improved some by diy efforts, but to get the best possible sound from the chips would probably still take a total redesign." I don't know about a "total redesign" but I would agree that the design of the I/V stage could be improved and Thorsten Loach gave me some ideas for that. Certainly not "junk",though, even basically as it comes with upgraded chips it sounds good. Good enough for me, anyway, and as a musician I'm tough to satisfy when it comes to tonality.
Where does "excellent" start? With AN and SW1X DACs using these same multibit chips and costing thousands? With Miro's designs well executed? I'd be interested in knowing of which Chinese DACs, finished or built boards, you would be confident in calling "excellent"? It could also be the case that "excellent" is a misleading concept, and "good enough not to want better for a while" would be more appropriate.
Where does "excellent" start? With AN and SW1X DACs using these same multibit chips and costing thousands? With Miro's designs well executed? I'd be interested in knowing of which Chinese DACs, finished or built boards, you would be confident in calling "excellent"? It could also be the case that "excellent" is a misleading concept, and "good enough not to want better for a while" would be more appropriate.
Andy,
Why not link to an Aliexpress board you like, and let's take a look at it? Maybe it only needs a little work or is fine already.
Why not link to an Aliexpress board you like, and let's take a look at it? Maybe it only needs a little work or is fine already.
Okay.
Looks like a two layer board. Is there a schematic? If not, the first thing I would usually do is sketch one up by inspection. Easy to do with 2-layer boards.
Is it optical SPDIF in and then some ASRC chip? What clock is that? How it it powered? Does the I2S input also go through an ASRC?
Looks like maybe some blue mylar caps in the output stage area?
Voltage regulators are what?
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After figuring out what it is to begin with, what mods would be recommended? Just the output stage?
And then how does it sound stock, what does it sound like modded as recommended, and how does it sound if you really clean it up?
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From the looks of it, getting it to sound its best would probably take a major redesign. However, I don't know what its best might be. Probably not worth the cost of fixing it up extensively.
Plus, I would buy a USB board for it, a decent one, and power supplies for that. Also, transformers for the dac board. A hum breaker circuit for safe grounding too. What else external to the dac board itself? A case?
Looks like a two layer board. Is there a schematic? If not, the first thing I would usually do is sketch one up by inspection. Easy to do with 2-layer boards.
Is it optical SPDIF in and then some ASRC chip? What clock is that? How it it powered? Does the I2S input also go through an ASRC?
Looks like maybe some blue mylar caps in the output stage area?
Voltage regulators are what?
--------------------------------------------------
After figuring out what it is to begin with, what mods would be recommended? Just the output stage?
And then how does it sound stock, what does it sound like modded as recommended, and how does it sound if you really clean it up?
------------------------------------------------
From the looks of it, getting it to sound its best would probably take a major redesign. However, I don't know what its best might be. Probably not worth the cost of fixing it up extensively.
Plus, I would buy a USB board for it, a decent one, and power supplies for that. Also, transformers for the dac board. A hum breaker circuit for safe grounding too. What else external to the dac board itself? A case?
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Thanks Mark. I use the SPDIF input via a V/Link USB to SPDIF converter. There's an optical option which I haven't connected. I'll see what else I can give you in the morning. it's late here.
This might be a nice upgrade which would allow bypass of the ASRC and provide for superior clocking at whatever quality level you would like to have:
Since you are all deep into this discussion, could you link me to a DAC board kit or a bare PCB DAC?
Preferably no power supply on board. No chassis required. Balanced and/or unbalanced. No volume controls. Requires ICs that are available. No Class D amp integrated.
A basic DAC of standard benchmark quality I can build at home into my own stand alone HiFI component.
Cheers.
Preferably no power supply on board. No chassis required. Balanced and/or unbalanced. No volume controls. Requires ICs that are available. No Class D amp integrated.
A basic DAC of standard benchmark quality I can build at home into my own stand alone HiFI component.
Cheers.
I would recommend to carefully read the first post of the following threads for info on schematics, Gerbers, and BOMs:
1. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/return-to-zero-shift-register-firdac.379406/post-6847540
2. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...2soverusb-pcm2dsd-rtz-dac.423401/post-7917601
3. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/simple-dsd-modulator-for-dsc2.370177/post-6593785
4. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/general-purpose-dac-clock-board.413001/ (info on power supplies, etc. for the above towards the end of the thread, maybe around here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/general-purpose-dac-clock-board.413001/post-7978938 or maybe around: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/general-purpose-dac-clock-board.413001/post-7976331)
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I have no clue if it sounds better than ICs... just poor people soldering all this by hand in China...
Serious, TDA1541, has easiness of liquid mid-range, pcm56k best bass ever, very very dark chip...
Then the Cirrus chips, easy to listen to, sounds good with opamp, then Broskie tubes, brings it to another completely different level, I don't know if it is between hell/heaven, audio nirvana and hifi-worshiping
It is just there sitting in the middle, undefeated. I promised myself to see what is going on VS typical dac chips, and I will deliver in one of my posts, things which interests no one (add-substract to the original master bite by bite then amplifier and listen to what actually is the THD and noise added or substracted by each output stages and could explain the sound beside looking at graphs and curves of complicated arbitrary forms)
I am working right now on a new dac project of my own, kind of ashamed again of the cost but who cares.
Serious, TDA1541, has easiness of liquid mid-range, pcm56k best bass ever, very very dark chip...
Then the Cirrus chips, easy to listen to, sounds good with opamp, then Broskie tubes, brings it to another completely different level, I don't know if it is between hell/heaven, audio nirvana and hifi-worshiping
It is just there sitting in the middle, undefeated. I promised myself to see what is going on VS typical dac chips, and I will deliver in one of my posts, things which interests no one (add-substract to the original master bite by bite then amplifier and listen to what actually is the THD and noise added or substracted by each output stages and could explain the sound beside looking at graphs and curves of complicated arbitrary forms)
I am working right now on a new dac project of my own, kind of ashamed again of the cost but who cares.
I know but I'm a buyer on Aliexpress and eBay. I do realise some aspects of the exchange.
OK. Great. You guys woke me up. I am looking again seriously how to tackle this.
Thanks.
Regarding R2R dacs I have heard, I think the best was the Andrea Mori discrete design driven by Andrea's FIFO board, and Andrea S-cut crystal DRIXO oscillators.
IMHO, Marcel's RTZ dac with clock board and power supplies, as described in projects linked in #665, is capable of being made into a world-class dac, easily better than the best R2R dac I have heard so far. However, it really matters that all of the build is done really right, paying careful attention to power supplies, layout of boards relative to each other, etc. With Cestrian's clock and reclocker board, and Iancanada SC Pure clocks its really quite good, likely the best most people have ever heard. Possible to make it even better with Acko clocks, but that gets significantly more costly.
IMHO, Marcel's RTZ dac with clock board and power supplies, as described in projects linked in #665, is capable of being made into a world-class dac, easily better than the best R2R dac I have heard so far. However, it really matters that all of the build is done really right, paying careful attention to power supplies, layout of boards relative to each other, etc. With Cestrian's clock and reclocker board, and Iancanada SC Pure clocks its really quite good, likely the best most people have ever heard. Possible to make it even better with Acko clocks, but that gets significantly more costly.