https://www.headphonesty.com/2025/02/scientists-reveal-pricey-hifi-setup-live-music/
I thought this was interesting but had the thought "don't live performances use speakers?".
I thought this was interesting but had the thought "don't live performances use speakers?".
That's a good point. I recently went to a 4 piece and it used amps. It has been some time since I have been to a full orchestra.
Quality speakers and good records (very scarce today) help a lot, for sure.
But they are right when they mention how sound is produced by speakers.
It's absolutelly different from how sound is produced by a piano, violin, drums.
My father had a Yamaha grand piano at home, I use to play drums and hung out with many musician friends playing all sorts of instruments.
And listen to a big band or an orchestra without mics is marvellous!
Listen to acoustic instruments is something completely different from recorded music.
But they are right when they mention how sound is produced by speakers.
It's absolutelly different from how sound is produced by a piano, violin, drums.
My father had a Yamaha grand piano at home, I use to play drums and hung out with many musician friends playing all sorts of instruments.
And listen to a big band or an orchestra without mics is marvellous!
Listen to acoustic instruments is something completely different from recorded music.
Its not only about speakers. Many bands will make sure they are at the their best if they know a show is going to be recorded. Not every performance is equally good, IME. Somedays the performers aren't feeling that good, say, after a long trip from one gig location to another (other times maybe they may be feeling a little too good, if you know what I mean). Also, studio recordings that are pieced together and or overdubbed may sound better in some ways than a live performance. Sometimes the recording band isn't the same as the road band (e.g. Steely Dan, which had some of the best studio musicians in LA play on their records).
A long time ( like when I was 20 years old and messing around with recording and PA ) I realized that no matter how good an audio system is, it will NEVER recreate the actual performance. At best, it will be a facsimile.
That's fine.
There is a single exception to this.
At the BAF24, the Plasmatronic set up was an eye opener. The classical pieces sounded like I was sitting in our mid hall row L, mid row seats.
Mind you, the whole thing was a ringer, from recording to playback to speakers, etc.. and the pieces were not BIG work horses but more "light". But how it was being recreated, it came astonishingly close to how I hear a live orchestra in a hall.
Now a drum kit? Forget it. The power of the drum kit is astonishing. A saxophone? Forget.
At best, you will hear a good recording with some ambience, maybe you run a rear channel speaker for ambience? If the engineer is good, then the sound will be like you're 20 feet from the stage. It will sound very good, very agreeable, but NOTHING like the real performance.
It's not a matter of psychoacoustics ( well, it is that too ) but mostly a matter of acoustic power.
Recently a heard an actual million dollar + system. WIlson Chronosonic driven by the most expensive D'Agostinos and a front end that cost more than an AMG Benz. It was definitely an impressive system... like having a trophy wife with $250K of Botox and a Kustom Krafted Wagnerian Chest from Dr. Kasabian in Beverly Hills. Good for bragging at the Newport Beach Yatch Club on Show Your Ferrari Night.
It sounded, pffft.... I think it's better to simply focus on making things sound good and reasonably believable.
Even if we have to add some good old negative 2nd order harmonic distortion into the mix.
Someday we will have a better understanding of the psycho acoustics and the cognitive mechanisms at play. Who knows?
In the meantime, a simple surround setup can sounds much better than plain stereo. Listen to Jazz At The Pawnshop, deriving a simple rear channel matrix. Use a cheap Schiit Syn to drive a couple of rear speakers. No need for fancy stuff, just a pair of small speakers and a reasonable 30 wpc amp, like a Parasound Zamp.
That's fine.
There is a single exception to this.
At the BAF24, the Plasmatronic set up was an eye opener. The classical pieces sounded like I was sitting in our mid hall row L, mid row seats.
Mind you, the whole thing was a ringer, from recording to playback to speakers, etc.. and the pieces were not BIG work horses but more "light". But how it was being recreated, it came astonishingly close to how I hear a live orchestra in a hall.
Now a drum kit? Forget it. The power of the drum kit is astonishing. A saxophone? Forget.
At best, you will hear a good recording with some ambience, maybe you run a rear channel speaker for ambience? If the engineer is good, then the sound will be like you're 20 feet from the stage. It will sound very good, very agreeable, but NOTHING like the real performance.
It's not a matter of psychoacoustics ( well, it is that too ) but mostly a matter of acoustic power.
Recently a heard an actual million dollar + system. WIlson Chronosonic driven by the most expensive D'Agostinos and a front end that cost more than an AMG Benz. It was definitely an impressive system... like having a trophy wife with $250K of Botox and a Kustom Krafted Wagnerian Chest from Dr. Kasabian in Beverly Hills. Good for bragging at the Newport Beach Yatch Club on Show Your Ferrari Night.
It sounded, pffft.... I think it's better to simply focus on making things sound good and reasonably believable.
Even if we have to add some good old negative 2nd order harmonic distortion into the mix.
Someday we will have a better understanding of the psycho acoustics and the cognitive mechanisms at play. Who knows?
In the meantime, a simple surround setup can sounds much better than plain stereo. Listen to Jazz At The Pawnshop, deriving a simple rear channel matrix. Use a cheap Schiit Syn to drive a couple of rear speakers. No need for fancy stuff, just a pair of small speakers and a reasonable 30 wpc amp, like a Parasound Zamp.
Duh!
The act of trying to capture a live event leads to the loss of huge amounts of information so it is inevitable that the reproduction will not be the same as the live performance,
This does not mean you cannoy enjoy the recording.
dave
The act of trying to capture a live event leads to the loss of huge amounts of information so it is inevitable that the reproduction will not be the same as the live performance,
This does not mean you cannoy enjoy the recording.
dave
Hmm... with a good recording, the right music.... it can be eerily close to what your hear at a Cathedral... I understand the guys who are into organ and vocal music.
We once walked into a Cathedral while a boys choir was singing Mozart's Requiem. It was hair raising... the music fully enveloped us, from all directions. It was an emotional experience.
I think that kind of music, with a full range speaker, can achieve a very good facsimile at home.
Why do you think I like Maggies? Big wave fronts of sound. Some times it makes you feel like you should dip your fingers in the holy water and cross yourself before sitting down to listening.
Then, just to prove the odd thing... when you love the music, it can be a simple PA above you in a coffee shop in Kyoto or youtube while you're trying to get the code to compile..
We once walked into a Cathedral while a boys choir was singing Mozart's Requiem. It was hair raising... the music fully enveloped us, from all directions. It was an emotional experience.
I think that kind of music, with a full range speaker, can achieve a very good facsimile at home.
Why do you think I like Maggies? Big wave fronts of sound. Some times it makes you feel like you should dip your fingers in the holy water and cross yourself before sitting down to listening.
Then, just to prove the odd thing... when you love the music, it can be a simple PA above you in a coffee shop in Kyoto or youtube while you're trying to get the code to compile..
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Oh, that I understand. Why you don't use a @MarcelvdG RTZ DSD FIRDAC type dac with Acko clocks is what I don't understand. Well, I kind of understand that too, I guess. You have no idea how good it can be, would probably be the main reason?
Trust me, if you heard it you would want it. I think so because you seem to be the type that knows good sound when you hear it.
Yes, I've seen his DAC... Is that a belt drive DAC? ;-)
I guess I haven't bitten into it.
BTW, I "found" an LP a couple of years ago in my collection... brand new! Frank Zappa Live at the Roxy and elsewhere. A very well recorded LP. Really good soundstage. It doesn't sound like I'm in the Roxy, but it sure sounds pretty... and fun.
I guess I haven't bitten into it.
BTW, I "found" an LP a couple of years ago in my collection... brand new! Frank Zappa Live at the Roxy and elsewhere. A very well recorded LP. Really good soundstage. It doesn't sound like I'm in the Roxy, but it sure sounds pretty... and fun.
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Sure. What about for the sound system with the Maggies?
So, why not use a superior sounding dac that contributes significantly more to that experience than you can probably imagine a dac being able to do?
So, why not use a superior sounding dac that contributes significantly more to that experience than you can probably imagine a dac being able to do?
Because I have 4000 LPs and I'm in the process of listening to 20 or so op amps in the P3 being driven by a belt driven LP12...
I do DACs too, but honestly when I look at all of that SMD stuff, I croak.
I do DACs too, but honestly when I look at all of that SMD stuff, I croak.
I have DS Audio optical vinyl here with a Technics SP10-MKIII, Korf ceramic head shell, Panzerholz plinth, custom preamp, blah, blah, blah.
This dac is more holographic than the vinyl; dac is more holographic than vinyl systems better than mine too.
However SMD is a problem for some folks who haven't yet taken the leap. Mostly its more scary than difficult though. A little practice and the right tools makes it quite doable.
This dac is more holographic than the vinyl; dac is more holographic than vinyl systems better than mine too.
However SMD is a problem for some folks who haven't yet taken the leap. Mostly its more scary than difficult though. A little practice and the right tools makes it quite doable.
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@tonyEE: You mentioned it’s “mostly a matter of acoustic power”. The problem with SMD is it can’t do electrical power worth a damn, and acoustically accurate speakers for small spaces tend NOT to be efficient adding fuel to that fire. It’s fine for all that preamp and processing stuff, but to make real power you still need something heat-sinkable (even for class D) not some stupid (noisy, unreliable) 1” fan blowing directly across the PCB.
By "acoustic power" I meant what's coming out of the speakers. That's why, IMHO, large panels or large speakers -think Maggies or Infinity IRS- can energize the room. So the electrical power is in the amplifier, subject to the efficiency of the speakers, your AC lines and the cost of KwH ( here it's 48 cents per KwH ).
Also, you do need a reasonably large space to let the lower frequencies -breathe- and form.
For small spaces, you can do a reasonable facsimile at lower levels...
My referring to SMD is the act of soldering. Yikes...
@Michael C You don't know what live music sounds like then.
@Markw4 I've been curious about the DS Audio cartridges. But it would pretty much require a rethinking of the front end.
Also, you do need a reasonably large space to let the lower frequencies -breathe- and form.
For small spaces, you can do a reasonable facsimile at lower levels...
My referring to SMD is the act of soldering. Yikes...
@Michael C You don't know what live music sounds like then.
@Markw4 I've been curious about the DS Audio cartridges. But it would pretty much require a rethinking of the front end.
I think the point is that the reproduction is fundamentally different. It may sound better or worse or even convincingly life like. However information is lost and modified in the process.
Some of these studies are moronic. Of course it won't sound like a live performance Studio recordings are processed for car systems and cheaper headphones.
This does not take into account any filters for streaming and compression.
This does not take into account any filters for streaming and compression.