Good morning everyone.
I want to preface that I have already done a lot of searching and reading on this subject but obviously quite a lot was over my head and there is incredible abundance of information to sift through. So I do apologize for asking something that is well covered and likely well understood by most members. Thank you in advance.
On to the situation. Long story short, I've always had a huge appreciation for music but never had the budget for a high quality setup so I have mostly stuck to midrange headphones and vintage scores from CL and the like. This has been adequate so far and has greatly surpassed what's available to average consumers at a reasonable price. My daily driver for the last 8 years or so has been a 1968 HH Scott 2550-W "Scottie" with its proper enclosures that I scored for $50. The drivers were smoked when I got it so I grabbed some 6.5" paper cone boses from the parcel shelf of a Mazda Millenia when I was at a junkyard and by mostly luck, these have been a great fit for the system. Its a bookshelf SS unit so I know it's not creme de la creme but it does sound great to my ears when placed well in the right sized space. The highs roll off a little early and bass extension isn't anything to write home about but it does blow the doors off what most average people would consider "quality sound" and is very pleasant to listen to for extended periods.
All that being said, the unit just runs out of steam in a larger space. My SO and I recently became home owners (finally, hooray) and I now have a much larger space that I need to fill with quality sound and the shortcomings of my setup are more apparent than in the past. I know that replacing a 10wpc with a 7wpc amp for a larger room, is a little backwards but I'm hoping with high sensitivity drivers and well designed enclosures it will work out how I am imagining.
So for amplification I'm planning on a cheap chinese SE EL84 unit. I know that I love the tube sound from a couple guitar amps that I have and I'm ready to splurge a little bit and dip my toes into the water. The unit in question is a Reisong A10. They are absolutely terrible out of the box with nearly 10% distortion at 1w output but with some simple modifications they can perform well up to 6-7wpc. I know this is a gamble but after watching Skunkie Designs youtube series fixing this amp, I am pretty confident it will be a good performer afterwards and a risk I am willing to take. I'm new to enclosure and amp design but I'm very handy with a soldering iron - everything from microsoldering on phones to building LED grid arrays for aerial advertising.
My room setup is funky. The main listening space is 14' wide by 20'ish long with a vaulted ceiling starting at 8' high on the left to 11' on the right. There is a large opening on the right side of the room that goes to my kitchen and dining room and would like to be able to pass music through to enjoy while cooking. Not ideal conditions but that's what I'm dealing with. I would like the enclosures to be close to the wall. I also know that I much prefer paper cones compared to other construction methods.
Given my constraints (full range, open sound stage, good dispersion, high sensitivity, paper cones, budget friendly, placed close to wall. needs to fit in with MCM furnishing) it seems to me that a Pencil setup with 4ish" drivers could potentially fit the bill. I have read through some of the blind driver comparison threads to get an idea of what people like subjectively and to then look at the specifications of said drivers to try and find a fit.
First up are a couple of Faitalpro offerings.
The 3" 3FE22
Pros - Very cost effective, good sensitivity, excellent off axis FR.
Cons - Bass rolls off quite early at 250hz and without a tried and proven pencil design (that I could find) for this driver I wouldn't know where to start dimensions wise
The 4" 4FE32
Pros - Cost effective, good sensitivity, very good off axis response, good response down to 150hz
Cons - off axis performance slightly reduced compared to 3FE22, same issue of enclosure design
Then there are a couple Mark Audios, the Alpair 10p or 12p
Pros - Proven, available Pencil enclosure designs, highly regarded by the community for quality etc
Cons - less cost effective, less sensitive, less off axis performance and they are apparently intolerant of poor amplification (I hope for this to be inconsequential but remains to be seen)
So long story short I guess my questions are:
Does a pencil design suit my use case? Am I on the right track regarding driver selection? If not, what would you suggest? Is there a good pencil design available for the Faitalpros?
Thank you all, this site has been a great resource so far and thank for taking the time to post on here, it has been immensely helpful already.
I want to preface that I have already done a lot of searching and reading on this subject but obviously quite a lot was over my head and there is incredible abundance of information to sift through. So I do apologize for asking something that is well covered and likely well understood by most members. Thank you in advance.
On to the situation. Long story short, I've always had a huge appreciation for music but never had the budget for a high quality setup so I have mostly stuck to midrange headphones and vintage scores from CL and the like. This has been adequate so far and has greatly surpassed what's available to average consumers at a reasonable price. My daily driver for the last 8 years or so has been a 1968 HH Scott 2550-W "Scottie" with its proper enclosures that I scored for $50. The drivers were smoked when I got it so I grabbed some 6.5" paper cone boses from the parcel shelf of a Mazda Millenia when I was at a junkyard and by mostly luck, these have been a great fit for the system. Its a bookshelf SS unit so I know it's not creme de la creme but it does sound great to my ears when placed well in the right sized space. The highs roll off a little early and bass extension isn't anything to write home about but it does blow the doors off what most average people would consider "quality sound" and is very pleasant to listen to for extended periods.
All that being said, the unit just runs out of steam in a larger space. My SO and I recently became home owners (finally, hooray) and I now have a much larger space that I need to fill with quality sound and the shortcomings of my setup are more apparent than in the past. I know that replacing a 10wpc with a 7wpc amp for a larger room, is a little backwards but I'm hoping with high sensitivity drivers and well designed enclosures it will work out how I am imagining.
So for amplification I'm planning on a cheap chinese SE EL84 unit. I know that I love the tube sound from a couple guitar amps that I have and I'm ready to splurge a little bit and dip my toes into the water. The unit in question is a Reisong A10. They are absolutely terrible out of the box with nearly 10% distortion at 1w output but with some simple modifications they can perform well up to 6-7wpc. I know this is a gamble but after watching Skunkie Designs youtube series fixing this amp, I am pretty confident it will be a good performer afterwards and a risk I am willing to take. I'm new to enclosure and amp design but I'm very handy with a soldering iron - everything from microsoldering on phones to building LED grid arrays for aerial advertising.
My room setup is funky. The main listening space is 14' wide by 20'ish long with a vaulted ceiling starting at 8' high on the left to 11' on the right. There is a large opening on the right side of the room that goes to my kitchen and dining room and would like to be able to pass music through to enjoy while cooking. Not ideal conditions but that's what I'm dealing with. I would like the enclosures to be close to the wall. I also know that I much prefer paper cones compared to other construction methods.
Given my constraints (full range, open sound stage, good dispersion, high sensitivity, paper cones, budget friendly, placed close to wall. needs to fit in with MCM furnishing) it seems to me that a Pencil setup with 4ish" drivers could potentially fit the bill. I have read through some of the blind driver comparison threads to get an idea of what people like subjectively and to then look at the specifications of said drivers to try and find a fit.
First up are a couple of Faitalpro offerings.
The 3" 3FE22
Pros - Very cost effective, good sensitivity, excellent off axis FR.
Cons - Bass rolls off quite early at 250hz and without a tried and proven pencil design (that I could find) for this driver I wouldn't know where to start dimensions wise
The 4" 4FE32
Pros - Cost effective, good sensitivity, very good off axis response, good response down to 150hz
Cons - off axis performance slightly reduced compared to 3FE22, same issue of enclosure design
Then there are a couple Mark Audios, the Alpair 10p or 12p
Pros - Proven, available Pencil enclosure designs, highly regarded by the community for quality etc
Cons - less cost effective, less sensitive, less off axis performance and they are apparently intolerant of poor amplification (I hope for this to be inconsequential but remains to be seen)
So long story short I guess my questions are:
Does a pencil design suit my use case? Am I on the right track regarding driver selection? If not, what would you suggest? Is there a good pencil design available for the Faitalpros?
Thank you all, this site has been a great resource so far and thank for taking the time to post on here, it has been immensely helpful already.
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Both will work with single ended tube amps. 12p Super Pencils will play a little louder, because the drivers are a bit more efficient vs the 10p. Just depends how loud you like your music, room size, genre of music etc.
Pensil designs are specific to Mark Audio drivers.
jeff
Is there a reason for that? Is there a similar design that would complement the faitalpros? I could call it a fountain pen if that helps.
Greets!
Best if we know the amp's output impedance, i.e. its series resistance that will increase the driver's effective Qts > Qts'.
As for the rest and IIRC it seems like the Pensil concept was my contribution back at the beginning of this great DIYer's site and offshoots, so if still done basically the same way, any driver can work to a greater or lesser extent, just depends on one's performance goals, so need to elaborate more; such as desired BW, speaker placements in room, general room layout (ideally at least a plan view).
Best if we know the amp's output impedance, i.e. its series resistance that will increase the driver's effective Qts > Qts'.
As for the rest and IIRC it seems like the Pensil concept was my contribution back at the beginning of this great DIYer's site and offshoots, so if still done basically the same way, any driver can work to a greater or lesser extent, just depends on one's performance goals, so need to elaborate more; such as desired BW, speaker placements in room, general room layout (ideally at least a plan view).
I apologize for my ignorance but I'm not sure I know what that is. The unit has speaker outputs for 4ohm or 8ohm and the primary resistance of the output transformer was measured a 3.2Kohms. Though I doubt that is helpful
I can do a quick floor plan of the space a little later on today.
Edit - Here is a picture of the space before we owned it. Thankfully it isn't as dreadful now as it was then. Now has laminate floors. It will get a rug but otherwise no other acoustic consideration so far.
I can do a quick floor plan of the space a little later on today.
Edit - Here is a picture of the space before we owned it. Thankfully it isn't as dreadful now as it was then. Now has laminate floors. It will get a rug but otherwise no other acoustic consideration so far.
Attachments
I recently built the Pensil 10 boxes for a pair of MA Alpair 10P and paired it with a 15wpc PP EL84. CR designs Kalypso.
It was my first venture into full range drivers and I was apprehensive. (I was used to large vintage JBL's) and 90watts of Sony ES power.
I was quite amazed at the frequency range, particularly the low end. Not as loud or low as my jbl's, but plenty enough for my room.
However, here's the caveat..
Certain music sounds rubbish. Hard metal for example, or even just some raunchy guitar. If the music gets busy, the speakers struggle.
I had to immediately refrain from playing any such music.
It was my first venture into full range drivers and I was apprehensive. (I was used to large vintage JBL's) and 90watts of Sony ES power.
I was quite amazed at the frequency range, particularly the low end. Not as loud or low as my jbl's, but plenty enough for my room.
However, here's the caveat..
Certain music sounds rubbish. Hard metal for example, or even just some raunchy guitar. If the music gets busy, the speakers struggle.
I had to immediately refrain from playing any such music.
Hmm that's an interesting observation, thank you for sharing. Metal and heavy rock are not usually to my taste so hopefully that won't matter too much in my situation.
Edit - I've searched high and low without finding the output impedance listed anywhere. I do not yet have the amp or else I would just measure it. I'll ask and see if someone could measure it until then.
Edit - I've searched high and low without finding the output impedance listed anywhere. I do not yet have the amp or else I would just measure it. I'll ask and see if someone could measure it until then.
Don't know. I may be wrong, but I don't think there is a trademark regarding the Pensil name, so you could call them that if you design them yourself. Fountain Pen works though. 🙂
I've seen a lot worse. I don't see why 10p Pensils wouldn't work in your space. You may find the 12p Super Pensils are a little too large, maybe not.
12p Super Pensils don't struggle, but I'll admit, I don't play much metal. Rush sounds good on them thought. 🙂
jeff
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My gut says the super pensils would not pass the aesthetic approval process 🤣
Dave probably still has drawings for a pair I built about 10(?) years ago for FF125WK, I think - we called it Le Stylo. Personally preferred the A7.3 Pensils and ran them for a short while with the great Tubelab SimplePP EL84 in an approximately 340sa ft room.
Yup, the A12P Super Pensils aren’t tiny but certainly kick.
There’s also the FH3 and FHL which have proven very amenable to a very wide range of their respective size classes; and once again, the A7.3 or its current successor would be my go to. I’m a big advocate of proper bass management and even a single small powered sub to quite satisfactory performance in this category.
Yup, the A12P Super Pensils aren’t tiny but certainly kick.
There’s also the FH3 and FHL which have proven very amenable to a very wide range of their respective size classes; and once again, the A7.3 or its current successor would be my go to. I’m a big advocate of proper bass management and even a single small powered sub to quite satisfactory performance in this category.
So I did quite a lot of digging and came across this (the a12 and a10 have the same OPT's afaik)
"OK on this little A12 amp, I am measuring a 20:1 turn ratio on the 8ohm tap and that = 3.2K primary. On the UL/screen tap I am seeing a 10:1 turn ratio on the 8ohm tap and that would be 800ohm."
So at least the 8 ohm outputs have an impedance of 800ohm. I'm not sure what that might mean for the 4ohm outputs. I hope this answers your question.
Chrisb, I came across the frugal horns and find them pleasing to the eye, my SO not as much lol. A console setup was where we started as a compromise, so having any type of free standing enclosure is a big improvement, even if my choices seem too constrained lol
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If enclosure size is a major constraint, but you’re still considering any of the MA family drivers, along with floorstanders such as the Pensils or other MLTL types, Dave and Scott have a wide array of compact vented enclosures. The last of such type I built was probably http://p10hifi.net/FAL/downloads/CGR-MarKen103p-plan-040414.pdf
Goodness, that was about 10 years ago.
Goodness, that was about 10 years ago.
Do not expect more than 3W for a SE EL84 tube amp. I have one and was pretty satisfied with my alpairs 7.3 on my FH3.
Not enough headroom for orchestra hearing levels, but everything else was quite resolving. Voices and strings were just the best I've heard, with a fabulous soundstage.
I would give a try on a 90+dB sensibility on the FH3 XL like the W5-2143, it will surprise you.
Sorry, just saw the comment about WAF... Try to make it with a nice finish and start calling it a decorative peace of art. I has worked with my wife... first it was on pure wood with no finishing... she was like... meeehhh...
After a carpenter friend took some weeks to make a nice finish, I wasn't able to change it for smaller speakers, as she wanted THAT ones for decorating the room. The back curves makes it sexy, maybe. lol
Not enough headroom for orchestra hearing levels, but everything else was quite resolving. Voices and strings were just the best I've heard, with a fabulous soundstage.
I would give a try on a 90+dB sensibility on the FH3 XL like the W5-2143, it will surprise you.
Sorry, just saw the comment about WAF... Try to make it with a nice finish and start calling it a decorative peace of art. I has worked with my wife... first it was on pure wood with no finishing... she was like... meeehhh...
After a carpenter friend took some weeks to make a nice finish, I wasn't able to change it for smaller speakers, as she wanted THAT ones for decorating the room. The back curves makes it sexy, maybe. lol
I think that's actually a typo. Reisong A10/12 have EL34 as output tubes, so 6 clean watts is a remote possibility, after some extensive mods. 😉
jeff
Re. output impedance, look at the schematic. If there is global negative feedback (from output transformer secondary to input tube cathode), then it is an amp with low output impedance that behaves as any constant voltage amp. If there is no GNFB loop, the amp is high output impedance, with which no conventional enclosure would work.
Given WAF limitation, I wouldn't go pencils. Use CHN-50, Alpair-5, or MAOP-5 in a 2-liter sealed enclosure for everything 170 Hz and above. For lows 4" - 6" quality midbass in ported enclosure driven with adjustable frequency Class D.
The MAOP is a little pricey, but you get electrostatic quality sound with it.
The MAOP is a little pricey, but you get electrostatic quality sound with it.
Thanks! I did not search for the amp, so I went purely on the given tube info.
I use a Chinese APPJ 1601A with soviet tubes like the Decware ones and this is enough for me.
Explains the 7w, EL34 not EL84. EL84 SE is typically 1.5-5w. My experience has me preferring EL84, but given wht you are coming from, a modest, OK sounding modern amplifier will be a big step up.
A Pensil has a Mark Audio driver, as Chris says, other boxes with the same alignment but other brand drivers, woulod have a different name. As Chris says, the ones Scott did for a couple of the Fostex are Le Stylo (Pencil in French). I know of no others. With appropriate drivers Scott could doa custom design.
But suggestion that A12p (A10p is NLA and hard to get) is not as good a value is noyt true given the size of your space and the need for bass. By the time you add a pair of subwoofers to the Faital you have spent more.
There are people happily using these drivers with just a cou0oe watts. As important, maybe morer so how gracefully it recovers from clipping.
Note the spelling: Pensil.
dave
As the amplifier output impedance (Rout) increases, the speaker’s impedance starts to directly affect the frequency reaponaw (a portion of the impedance curve is convolved with the frequency response [as driven with a voltage amp — ie low Rout]). The bass response of the enclosure can be adjusted using the modified spec GM notes.
If you do this and get a low Rout amp you peaker box will be too large.
A high Rout tend toprefer a loudspeaker with flattish impedance and part of the design of the Pensil was to have the speaker box flatten out the LF impedance peak, the variable damping also helps to tune the loudspeaker to the amp (and room, room pacement, your tastes)
Typically an SE amp has higher Rout, one with an output transformer is usually even higher.
I strongly suspect that the maker of the Reisong won’t even know what you are asking ifyou request the Rout value.
dave
No. That is a completely different a specification. A reasonable value for Rout is 1-3Ω.
dave