I know this is an older unit but has many favorable comments over the years. I just picked one up to try it out as my main preamp (Parasound PLD 2000) seems to be having problems. My phono stage may also be having problems, still tracking things down. I use a Cary PH301 phono stage but am trying the Forte out for now. My cartridge is LOMC FR1MK3F. Have AR 9's bi amped with 2 Parasound HCA 2200 II amps. I've enjoyed this system for around 20 years. Things may be starting to wear out. Looking into repairs, upgrades and possible replacements but more into the idea of repairing the "old". First thing I'd like to know is about the cartridge settings in the Forte Model 2. I have a copy of the settings but not entirely sure what they mean. If anyone is familiar, that would be great. If I should be on another forum, let me know. Seems like many good minds to pick on this site as I've been lurking and reading for some time before joining. Thanks for any advice.
Fidelity Research. It is very low output .14Mv 10 ohm load. I can't find anything on capacitance for it. I read that a phone pre should be set to 10 times the rated cartridge load so I guess 100 is the right setting if I am understanding correctly.
Generally irrelevant for LOMC.
Yes, that's the old rule of thumb for LOMC cartridges.
jeff
Rayma
Thanks for the manual but I can't seem to open it. I do have a copy of the dip switch settings that was posted somewhere in my internet search. There are 8 dip switches and the unit was set with only number 1 on. It states that this is the 40db setting, all others off translates to 47K loading, and capacitance at 100pf. I do not know what capacitance I need but left it at 100pf and turned off 1, turned on 3, which states this is 60db gain. I am not sure if 1 and 2 should be off but I did turn off switch 1 so the only one of the 3 gain switches that is on, is 3. Should all 3 be on or just number 3? Does not say in the directions that I have. 60db gain is what I had with my Cary tube phono pre but it seemed to provide a lot more gain than I have with this unit. I also use a 10db SUT from SAEC. Same one I used with the Cary. The Cary has a toggle on the back for MC MM. Set at 40db for MM and 60db for MC. 3 tubes drive the MM side, 5 tubes drive the MC side. I have no idea what the presets for Load or capacitance are but says it's adjustable on MC side from I think 100 to 500 ohm. I imagine MM side is set to 47K, changes with the toggle. Other adjustments are inside and I've never opened it up. It always sounded good enough to not worry about it.
Thanks for the manual but I can't seem to open it. I do have a copy of the dip switch settings that was posted somewhere in my internet search. There are 8 dip switches and the unit was set with only number 1 on. It states that this is the 40db setting, all others off translates to 47K loading, and capacitance at 100pf. I do not know what capacitance I need but left it at 100pf and turned off 1, turned on 3, which states this is 60db gain. I am not sure if 1 and 2 should be off but I did turn off switch 1 so the only one of the 3 gain switches that is on, is 3. Should all 3 be on or just number 3? Does not say in the directions that I have. 60db gain is what I had with my Cary tube phono pre but it seemed to provide a lot more gain than I have with this unit. I also use a 10db SUT from SAEC. Same one I used with the Cary. The Cary has a toggle on the back for MC MM. Set at 40db for MM and 60db for MC. 3 tubes drive the MM side, 5 tubes drive the MC side. I have no idea what the presets for Load or capacitance are but says it's adjustable on MC side from I think 100 to 500 ohm. I imagine MM side is set to 47K, changes with the toggle. Other adjustments are inside and I've never opened it up. It always sounded good enough to not worry about it.
I have read the same about capacitance that it is irrelevant or nearly so with LOMC. Of course, there is always at least one who disagrees and I don't remember what was said about that. There is always somebody who has to disagree. 🙂 All I can say is that it seemed at least fairly irrelevant with my old set up. The only numbers I was sure of were the gain settings. The rest seemed adequate and it provided a very pleasant listening experience. The Forte sounds pretty close to what I had but it does require dialing the volume to about 2 o'clock for a serious "live simulation". I won't call it as complete as the old Parasound, Cary combo but I may not be set right either. Also a difference moving from tube to SS. I sense a little loss of detail but not a lot. B+ so far in listening to this preamp. I also realize that my old amps could be getting tired but there is some loss from what I had to the new trial. I suspect there will always be some difference. I'd like to get this one dialed in and start posting questions about problems with the Parasound pre and maybe the Cary. Cables are always a possibility as well. Working on that too.
You do need a PDF reader for the manual. The capacitive loading info is only for MM cartridges,
although some odd folks did try to add rather large capacitors to their MC cartridges some time ago.
The mfr recommended resistive loading for the FR1MK3F is 10 ohms.
although some odd folks did try to add rather large capacitors to their MC cartridges some time ago.
The mfr recommended resistive loading for the FR1MK3F is 10 ohms.
I do have a pdf reader, adobe I think but whatever it is, I open pdf files all the time. I never know which program does what. I'm an old geezer who lived my first 40 years or so without a computer. I never have a hammer anywhere near my computer, just to be safe. 🙂 I did not recognize the icon but anyway, it was opening, showing everything but the document and saying there was a problem. I don't know what was wrong. Anyway, this is the information that I copied already. How would anyone else interpret this as to the 3 switches for gain? Only number 3 on, or 1, 2 and 3 on? I only have 3 and 4 on. It sounds "decent", not perfect but seems short on gain compared to my other phono pre, which was also 60db gain. Just trying to sort some things out before making my final assessment of this preamp. Thanks for any comments. I appreciate all.
If you already have a step up transformer at +10db, would that be enough to use the MM input? If so, then the 40 dB setting should work. Experimentation might be the best judge for all of this.
The manual indicates switch 3 only will produce 60 db of gain. Switch 4 on is 100 ohms load. Try switch 6 instead and see what happens. That should do it, and I find one phono pre IS different than the next concerning gain. Maybe you should be using the SUT as well.
The manual indicates switch 3 only will produce 60 db of gain. Switch 4 on is 100 ohms load. Try switch 6 instead and see what happens. That should do it, and I find one phono pre IS different than the next concerning gain. Maybe you should be using the SUT as well.
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Ixnay
This preamp only has one phono input. The switches are all inside, has to be opened up to change from MM to MC. Kind of odd but OK, I guess. Also no on off switch on this one. Never seen that before. 70db seems to be about a minimum for this cartridge. The Cary claims to have enough gain for even the lowest output MC. When I called Cary about it, they said, "well, not that low". 60 to 62db seems to be almost every preamp setting for LOMC. It isn't anything to brag about I guess since it's pretty standard. Most low output MC cartridges have around .2mv output. The FR is super low at .14. I don't think I've ever seen lower although it may exist somewhere. It took me awhile to find a decent SUT that only provided 10db. Most that I found were 20 to 30 and I thought that would be too much as those are mostly for preamps that only have MM output so 40db, not nearly enough for LOMC.
This preamp only has one phono input. The switches are all inside, has to be opened up to change from MM to MC. Kind of odd but OK, I guess. Also no on off switch on this one. Never seen that before. 70db seems to be about a minimum for this cartridge. The Cary claims to have enough gain for even the lowest output MC. When I called Cary about it, they said, "well, not that low". 60 to 62db seems to be almost every preamp setting for LOMC. It isn't anything to brag about I guess since it's pretty standard. Most low output MC cartridges have around .2mv output. The FR is super low at .14. I don't think I've ever seen lower although it may exist somewhere. It took me awhile to find a decent SUT that only provided 10db. Most that I found were 20 to 30 and I thought that would be too much as those are mostly for preamps that only have MM output so 40db, not nearly enough for LOMC.
Really better to have too much gain than not enough, especially with such a low output cartridge. 20:1 step-up would be an easy SUT to source, and then just dial back the gain in the Forte if 60db is too much. Don't forget to load the SUT at 47k.
jeff
jeff
Jeff
I don't argue that too much is better than not enough, just that 60db has always been enough, just hasn't worked out with this preamp, which has made me wonder if I set something wrong. What do you mean about loading the SUT at 47k? In, out and grounds is all I have on it and it's a fair sized box. I've had some that have even less. I had a sumiko that was just a small cylinder, in, out, almost looked like an adaptor. Provided 30db if I remember right. I think my son has it now and uses it on pre's that don't have MC outputs. I am pretty much a dummy on this stuff, a far cry from electrical engineer. I try to follow instructions and listen to see if it sounds right to me. My ear is pretty good, knowledge base of electronics is very poor. I appreciate all input, just don't understand much of it as you guys would. This is why I asked if I would be on the right forum. I'm not a guy who can build an amp. I can perhaps do some minor repairs with solid advice. Not complaining at all, just want you guys to know that your knowledge of the subject will be well above my own.
I don't argue that too much is better than not enough, just that 60db has always been enough, just hasn't worked out with this preamp, which has made me wonder if I set something wrong. What do you mean about loading the SUT at 47k? In, out and grounds is all I have on it and it's a fair sized box. I've had some that have even less. I had a sumiko that was just a small cylinder, in, out, almost looked like an adaptor. Provided 30db if I remember right. I think my son has it now and uses it on pre's that don't have MC outputs. I am pretty much a dummy on this stuff, a far cry from electrical engineer. I try to follow instructions and listen to see if it sounds right to me. My ear is pretty good, knowledge base of electronics is very poor. I appreciate all input, just don't understand much of it as you guys would. This is why I asked if I would be on the right forum. I'm not a guy who can build an amp. I can perhaps do some minor repairs with solid advice. Not complaining at all, just want you guys to know that your knowledge of the subject will be well above my own.
You want the reflected load that the cartridge "sees" to be somewhere around 100-200 ohms, depending on the cartridges coil impedance. So for example, with a 20:1 SUT, the load that the cartridge sees from the transformer would be 47,000/20^2 = 117.5 ohms.
jeff
Jeff
Remember, I'm an idiot. I don't understand most of this. My SUT provides 10db gain. My preamp is set at 60db gain, as near as I can tell. My cartridge output is .14 and load impedance is 10 ohm. By what I have set things for, I believe the preamp is set to 60db gain, plus the 10db from SUT, so 70db gain. The preamp is also set to 100 ohms and capacitance is 100pf (which may be irrelevant). The gain seems low to me, compared to my former set up, which was also 60db gain plus the 10 from SAEC SUT. Trying to understand why this would be. On the old system, if volume hit 12 o'clock, was very damn loud. The Forte pushed to 2 o'clock is probably not quite as loud as the old one at 12. Seems odd. Maybe it means nothing. Don't give up on me. I'm trying to understand all this.
Remember, I'm an idiot. I don't understand most of this. My SUT provides 10db gain. My preamp is set at 60db gain, as near as I can tell. My cartridge output is .14 and load impedance is 10 ohm. By what I have set things for, I believe the preamp is set to 60db gain, plus the 10db from SUT, so 70db gain. The preamp is also set to 100 ohms and capacitance is 100pf (which may be irrelevant). The gain seems low to me, compared to my former set up, which was also 60db gain plus the 10 from SAEC SUT. Trying to understand why this would be. On the old system, if volume hit 12 o'clock, was very damn loud. The Forte pushed to 2 o'clock is probably not quite as loud as the old one at 12. Seems odd. Maybe it means nothing. Don't give up on me. I'm trying to understand all this.
Is the impedance setting on the Forte at 47,000 ohms? That's where it should be if you're using a SUT. What's the SAEC model number (just curious)? If you turn the volume past 2 o'clock, does you amp clip? If you can't get enough volume, or you can't get your amp to clip, then you need a SUT with a larger turns ratio, or a cartridge with more output etc.
jeff
jeff
Jeff
No, the setting on the Forte is set to 100 ohms. I thought it had to be there to match my cartridge. Had no idea that using SUT made a difference in that. Maybe that is affecting things? I thought it had to be at 100 for my MC but maybe the SUT negates that. This is the stuff I do not understand so bear with me. Anyway, the SAEC is MST-100. I get enough volume, amps don't clip. I'd be afraid to turn it up too much more. Have to understand that the biamp set up I'm using put's 440 watts 8 ohm to each speaker cabinet. I think the AR9's are rated for 400 but don't remember. It just baffles me that it takes so much more with this preamp. Maybe I'm not being clear in what I am saying. Not sure. I am going to swap the cartridge one of these days to a HOMC that has been on the shelf awhile. Just for a change really. I'll probably never get tired of this FR but I might wear it out. I bought 2 of them but let one go to a buddy. Probably should have kept it. NOS of these are near impossible to find now and I had two of them.
No, the setting on the Forte is set to 100 ohms. I thought it had to be there to match my cartridge. Had no idea that using SUT made a difference in that. Maybe that is affecting things? I thought it had to be at 100 for my MC but maybe the SUT negates that. This is the stuff I do not understand so bear with me. Anyway, the SAEC is MST-100. I get enough volume, amps don't clip. I'd be afraid to turn it up too much more. Have to understand that the biamp set up I'm using put's 440 watts 8 ohm to each speaker cabinet. I think the AR9's are rated for 400 but don't remember. It just baffles me that it takes so much more with this preamp. Maybe I'm not being clear in what I am saying. Not sure. I am going to swap the cartridge one of these days to a HOMC that has been on the shelf awhile. Just for a change really. I'll probably never get tired of this FR but I might wear it out. I bought 2 of them but let one go to a buddy. Probably should have kept it. NOS of these are near impossible to find now and I had two of them.
I read in the Forte' manual that listening should be right between 12 O' clock and 2. Sounds to me like you are already there. To understand the different qualities your two phono preamps, the Cary and the Forte' is a moot point. Sounds like the Forte' is doing all that it can at the 60 DB setting and maybe could be adjusted for the impedance. And I am assuming that the Cary was a tube unit and the Forte' is not? Not so important to compare unless you just don't care for the Forte'.
Ixnay
Thanks for that. Maybe all is well, just not what I expected. As I said, it seems pretty good. I gave it a B+ grade after some fairly loud testing with a couple of my normal reference LP's. Yes, the Cary is a tube unit, as mentioned earlier. Forte is SS. I don't think it is quite up to what I had before but it's the closest second that I've found, so far. I tried another SS phono stage a couple years back, was one with many adjustments, just thought I'd give pure SS a try again. I use all vintage tubes and they are getting more scarce all the time. I didn't care for how it worked in my system. My wife agreed that we were missing things so I sent it back. I do not remember what it was, which bothers me. Might have been Musical Fidelity but I really can't remember. I can't even find a receipt. It was around $1600 bucks and highly rated. I just couldn't get it to fit with what I listen to. I also tried a Nakamichi CA5 and was not overly impressed. Seemed better suited to CD than vinyl but most say it has a great phono stage. The unit I bought could be tired, it is old. I have one other to try but need to be sure the Cary is working as it has no phono stage. Interesting tube pre from Audio Valve. Arrived with a fuse problem, waiting for a part now.
Thanks for that. Maybe all is well, just not what I expected. As I said, it seems pretty good. I gave it a B+ grade after some fairly loud testing with a couple of my normal reference LP's. Yes, the Cary is a tube unit, as mentioned earlier. Forte is SS. I don't think it is quite up to what I had before but it's the closest second that I've found, so far. I tried another SS phono stage a couple years back, was one with many adjustments, just thought I'd give pure SS a try again. I use all vintage tubes and they are getting more scarce all the time. I didn't care for how it worked in my system. My wife agreed that we were missing things so I sent it back. I do not remember what it was, which bothers me. Might have been Musical Fidelity but I really can't remember. I can't even find a receipt. It was around $1600 bucks and highly rated. I just couldn't get it to fit with what I listen to. I also tried a Nakamichi CA5 and was not overly impressed. Seemed better suited to CD than vinyl but most say it has a great phono stage. The unit I bought could be tired, it is old. I have one other to try but need to be sure the Cary is working as it has no phono stage. Interesting tube pre from Audio Valve. Arrived with a fuse problem, waiting for a part now.