Hello everyone, it's a pleasure to be here, a little story 1st then, and then onto my question, which surely will be one of a few over the next few weeks
My listening story is way over 40 years on and off, but my restoration story is really under a year.
So, back in the day, I had a pair of Heybrook HB1's, my mate had Mission 700's, and boy did I love the sound of my HB's...Life came along, work, kids and all that, until 3 years back when I thought I would "relight the fire", and bought a pair of HB1's , cheap amp, turntable etc.... On and off listening, bits of cheaper kit, until I found Tidal and it all came back to me... and thats when the HB1's driver cone surround disintegrated on boxing day 23 ( funnily enough with the Jacksons blame it on the boogie, I sure did blame it on that)..
Oops, new speakers then, what turned out to be nasty ones from Cambridge Audio, went straight back, so...fix the HB's??? And yes I did, well, one of them, the other hasn't as yet given up...nice, very enjoyable, sort of relaxing, I like this hobby.
I was in a Vinyl shop in Inverness, chatting away as you do, guy said to me, you know there is a man close to you who fixes older kit (and sells it also), I made contact with him, saying I was looking for some Ditton 66's, good luck says he, why not try some KEF 104 AB's???
So, I found some, sublime (even on a cheap amp) so, much better amp (Evo 150), Qobuz.... fashioned some stands, lots of reading, suggestion was always update the caps etc...gulp, bought them, delivered, heart in my hands I did the first one, took me an hour, very careful.... reinstalled ..... incredible, did the other (20 minutes).... I love them, and this hobby.
Last weekend, I took a trip to Edinburgh to pick up a pair of Wharfedale W3's, once home I played them very carefully with the old Amp, they sounded OK, they looked dreadful...perfect project.
Ive stripped them down, and both the tweeters and woofers are excellent , but both of the mid range (Super 5's?) have some degradation around the cone surrounds, roughly about 1cm holes in both, so how do I go about fixing these, I cant find anything as easily as I did on the HB's, I don't want to just swap them out....thats my question then, how do I repair these??
I can see Galu makes some reference here to this issue ( https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dont-know-what-to-do.385233/#post-6996826 ), but cant find much else, nor can I see a way to direct contact Galu either (New boy error likely here)... I would appreciate any advice, thanks in advance.
My listening story is way over 40 years on and off, but my restoration story is really under a year.
So, back in the day, I had a pair of Heybrook HB1's, my mate had Mission 700's, and boy did I love the sound of my HB's...Life came along, work, kids and all that, until 3 years back when I thought I would "relight the fire", and bought a pair of HB1's , cheap amp, turntable etc.... On and off listening, bits of cheaper kit, until I found Tidal and it all came back to me... and thats when the HB1's driver cone surround disintegrated on boxing day 23 ( funnily enough with the Jacksons blame it on the boogie, I sure did blame it on that)..
Oops, new speakers then, what turned out to be nasty ones from Cambridge Audio, went straight back, so...fix the HB's??? And yes I did, well, one of them, the other hasn't as yet given up...nice, very enjoyable, sort of relaxing, I like this hobby.
I was in a Vinyl shop in Inverness, chatting away as you do, guy said to me, you know there is a man close to you who fixes older kit (and sells it also), I made contact with him, saying I was looking for some Ditton 66's, good luck says he, why not try some KEF 104 AB's???
So, I found some, sublime (even on a cheap amp) so, much better amp (Evo 150), Qobuz.... fashioned some stands, lots of reading, suggestion was always update the caps etc...gulp, bought them, delivered, heart in my hands I did the first one, took me an hour, very careful.... reinstalled ..... incredible, did the other (20 minutes).... I love them, and this hobby.
Last weekend, I took a trip to Edinburgh to pick up a pair of Wharfedale W3's, once home I played them very carefully with the old Amp, they sounded OK, they looked dreadful...perfect project.
Ive stripped them down, and both the tweeters and woofers are excellent , but both of the mid range (Super 5's?) have some degradation around the cone surrounds, roughly about 1cm holes in both, so how do I go about fixing these, I cant find anything as easily as I did on the HB's, I don't want to just swap them out....thats my question then, how do I repair these??
I can see Galu makes some reference here to this issue ( https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dont-know-what-to-do.385233/#post-6996826 ), but cant find much else, nor can I see a way to direct contact Galu either (New boy error likely here)... I would appreciate any advice, thanks in advance.
Hi @TullochwoodLodges
The Wharfedale literature does not mention a Super 5 in relation to the W3 speaker.
The lineup is given as a WLS/12 woofer, a 5" W3 midrange and a Super 3 tweeter.
The 5" W3 midrange is described as having a cloth surround.
This could be replaced by black melton wool cloth as used for clothing:
I suggest you attach the cloth using Anita's Tacky PVA Glue:
The Wharfedale literature does not mention a Super 5 in relation to the W3 speaker.
The lineup is given as a WLS/12 woofer, a 5" W3 midrange and a Super 3 tweeter.
The 5" W3 midrange is described as having a cloth surround.
This could be replaced by black melton wool cloth as used for clothing:
I suggest you attach the cloth using Anita's Tacky PVA Glue:
I believe the cloth surround doesn't contribute much in the way of support for the cone - most of that is provided by the rear suspension.
I'd caution against replacing the cloth surrounds unless absolutely necessary. Simply patching the 1 cm holes may suffice. The last thing you want to do is risk damaging the paper cones.
If you do wish to replace the entire surround, note that the cloth is attached to the rear circumference of the paper cone as shown in the (large) attachment. However, you could equally, and most conveniently, attach the cloth to the front circumference. A sharp scalpel blade can be used to simply cut through the cloth round the circumference of the cone. Then you will then have the happy task of separating the cloth from the speaker basket.
For interested parties, here is the speaker we are dealing with:
I'd caution against replacing the cloth surrounds unless absolutely necessary. Simply patching the 1 cm holes may suffice. The last thing you want to do is risk damaging the paper cones.
If you do wish to replace the entire surround, note that the cloth is attached to the rear circumference of the paper cone as shown in the (large) attachment. However, you could equally, and most conveniently, attach the cloth to the front circumference. A sharp scalpel blade can be used to simply cut through the cloth round the circumference of the cone. Then you will then have the happy task of separating the cloth from the speaker basket.
For interested parties, here is the speaker we are dealing with:
Attachments
Hello Galu, and everyone else on this thread, I will sure update and write more .
Galu your help is much appreciated, I think given the mainly small or indeed very small nature of the holes, I may well do as you suggest with some patching (see picture, still on the boards as I am working on the cabinets 1st)....perhaps I could get away with some tissue paper / or the Japanese stuff you see being used on the repair shop?...I will get some of that glue though, as the reviews for it are excellent !
One other question (for the moment anyhow), the cross overs are slightly different between the two speakers, now I am going to guess that the one called MK 2 on the pictures attached which has the Grey Chappy image in the mix (as such) has had the grey rectangle bottom left in image Mk 1 replaced at some point (sorry about the names here, Im learning on this stuff), But, if this was the case, I would expect to see holes from the strap fixings where it would have been (as per MK1 location)...but no holes are present on MK 2 image??? Any thoughts
Thanks
Galu your help is much appreciated, I think given the mainly small or indeed very small nature of the holes, I may well do as you suggest with some patching (see picture, still on the boards as I am working on the cabinets 1st)....perhaps I could get away with some tissue paper / or the Japanese stuff you see being used on the repair shop?...I will get some of that glue though, as the reviews for it are excellent !
One other question (for the moment anyhow), the cross overs are slightly different between the two speakers, now I am going to guess that the one called MK 2 on the pictures attached which has the Grey Chappy image in the mix (as such) has had the grey rectangle bottom left in image Mk 1 replaced at some point (sorry about the names here, Im learning on this stuff), But, if this was the case, I would expect to see holes from the strap fixings where it would have been (as per MK1 location)...but no holes are present on MK 2 image??? Any thoughts
Thanks
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I would patch the holes with thin cloth, perhaps from an old cotton T shirt.
In this W3 image, the cylindrical capacitor is a 12 uF bipolar electrolytic one and the rectangular block is a 2 uF paper in oil one.
A 2 uF rectangular block capacitor is present on both your crossovers. They are simply of different sizes and in different locations, and you'll see that each has a yellow and black wires connected to its terminals.
P.S. The inductor is 2.5 mH and wound with aluminium wire so don't disturb its connections.
It would be advisable to replace the 12 uF bipolar electrolytic capacitor as it has no doubt changed in capacitance value and series resistance over time.
Here's a suggested source: https://willys-hifi.com/collections...12uf-50v-bipolar-electrolytic-capacitor-plain
In this W3 image, the cylindrical capacitor is a 12 uF bipolar electrolytic one and the rectangular block is a 2 uF paper in oil one.
A 2 uF rectangular block capacitor is present on both your crossovers. They are simply of different sizes and in different locations, and you'll see that each has a yellow and black wires connected to its terminals.
P.S. The inductor is 2.5 mH and wound with aluminium wire so don't disturb its connections.
It would be advisable to replace the 12 uF bipolar electrolytic capacitor as it has no doubt changed in capacitance value and series resistance over time.
Here's a suggested source: https://willys-hifi.com/collections...12uf-50v-bipolar-electrolytic-capacitor-plain
Excellent thank you again @Galu, Ive a guest arriving this weekend who is a retired audio / electronics engineer, Ive asked him to kindly teach me about the crossover and do some measuring (he says he has all the kit!), but I will no doubt change the 12uF one as you advise, the balance of everything then we will see wont we, avoiding as you say the inductor
Final question for now then, and Ive asked Wharfedale directly on this, they kindly came back to me saying no idea, there was a fire in the 70's and everything was lost... My intention with these speakers is not 100% originality, the face of the speakers is, to me at least, is pug ugly, so I intend to construct an inset 3 winged cover, held on by small magnets, so one can see the speakers, or not....now the question
The bar across the woofer aperture, its set into the baffle, but its only half the depth (at most) of it, I cant see its structural, the baffle is plenty thick, I guess it was there for protection alone, Im sorely tempted to remove it, spoils the view ( and these WLS/12 have a nice open cone ) any thoughts ?
Thanks
Final question for now then, and Ive asked Wharfedale directly on this, they kindly came back to me saying no idea, there was a fire in the 70's and everything was lost... My intention with these speakers is not 100% originality, the face of the speakers is, to me at least, is pug ugly, so I intend to construct an inset 3 winged cover, held on by small magnets, so one can see the speakers, or not....now the question
The bar across the woofer aperture, its set into the baffle, but its only half the depth (at most) of it, I cant see its structural, the baffle is plenty thick, I guess it was there for protection alone, Im sorely tempted to remove it, spoils the view ( and these WLS/12 have a nice open cone ) any thoughts ?
Thanks
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The correct WLS/12 woofer is fitted with a thick expanded polystyrene diaphragm, known as a 'bung', which stiffens the paper cone and provides a degree of high frequency filtering.
I presume the bar across the aperture is there to give the additional physical protection that an open cone woofer would not require.
So take into account that the expanded polystyrene is easily damaged by the likes of probing fingers!
I presume the bar across the aperture is there to give the additional physical protection that an open cone woofer would not require.
So take into account that the expanded polystyrene is easily damaged by the likes of probing fingers!
The attached N.W.10. crossover schematic will aid your friend.
The schematic is extracted from Gilbert Briggs' book 'Loudspeakers', but the 4 uF capacitor is the wrong value for crossing at 5,000 Hz.
Please note it should be a 2 uF capacitor (as fitted in your W3), an error that was corrected in Brigg's follow-up book 'More About Loudspeakers'.
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Now....mine don't have the bungs (neither of them) , they say 12/RS/DD so, I don't know but, they sure look period ( and pretty nice) , and no probing fingers here, all grown up, although 2 left at home I cant get to leave, one of whom has an ideal room for listening in !...🙁
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The W3 speaker was introduced in 1959.
You have the much respected Super 12/RS/DD (12"/Roll Surround/Double Diaphragm) full range drivers which appeared in the Wharfedale catalogue of 1963, by which time the WLS/12 drivers will have been discontinued or not made available as individual units outside of the W3 enclosures.
This would suggest that the Super 12s are replacements, but pretty much of the period.
The Super 12 has a similar bass resonance frequency to that of the WLS/12 (in the region of 30 Hz) so should match the reflex tuning of the W3 enclosure.
The sound balance is likely to be different from the original configuration but, as you have no means of comparison, you can rest happy if your W3 speakers sound good to your ears.
Details of the Super 12/RS/DD are given in the (large) attachment.
You have the much respected Super 12/RS/DD (12"/Roll Surround/Double Diaphragm) full range drivers which appeared in the Wharfedale catalogue of 1963, by which time the WLS/12 drivers will have been discontinued or not made available as individual units outside of the W3 enclosures.
This would suggest that the Super 12s are replacements, but pretty much of the period.
The Super 12 has a similar bass resonance frequency to that of the WLS/12 (in the region of 30 Hz) so should match the reflex tuning of the W3 enclosure.
The sound balance is likely to be different from the original configuration but, as you have no means of comparison, you can rest happy if your W3 speakers sound good to your ears.
Details of the Super 12/RS/DD are given in the (large) attachment.
Attachments
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Hi @Galu ,
My guests says the 12 uF bipolar electrolytic capacitors are actually fine (fine and good are different things I find), but that one of the rectangular block 2 uF paper in oil is way out in measurement… the inductors are however both fine
What I would like to do then is replace on both cross overs, both the 12 uf and the 2 uf, even though the 12 uf are apparently fine, I dont want to mess about several times over, I would rather do it all at once.
You have kindly recommended for the 12uf above, what would you recommend for the 2uf please as Im sure you have been there before, and for all my looking, Im just ending up confused !
Likewise then, do you think there is value in replacing the inductors, I.e a clean sweep bar the speakers of course?
Thanks in advance
My guests says the 12 uF bipolar electrolytic capacitors are actually fine (fine and good are different things I find), but that one of the rectangular block 2 uF paper in oil is way out in measurement… the inductors are however both fine
What I would like to do then is replace on both cross overs, both the 12 uf and the 2 uf, even though the 12 uf are apparently fine, I dont want to mess about several times over, I would rather do it all at once.
You have kindly recommended for the 12uf above, what would you recommend for the 2uf please as Im sure you have been there before, and for all my looking, Im just ending up confused !
Likewise then, do you think there is value in replacing the inductors, I.e a clean sweep bar the speakers of course?
Thanks in advance
Suitable 2 uF capacitors are available here: https://willys-hifi.com/collections...lene-capacitors-400v-5?variant=36530269356191
The problem with replacing the aluminium inductor is matching its DC resistance and inductance value.
2.7 mH is the nearest modern standard value to the fitted 2.5 mH and, if you can measure the DC resistance of the aluminium coil, I can direct you towards one with a matching DCR.
EDIT: As to the value of the inductor replacement, I'd say of little value.
The problem with replacing the aluminium inductor is matching its DC resistance and inductance value.
2.7 mH is the nearest modern standard value to the fitted 2.5 mH and, if you can measure the DC resistance of the aluminium coil, I can direct you towards one with a matching DCR.
EDIT: As to the value of the inductor replacement, I'd say of little value.
I, for one, will be interested in the progress of your renovation, so do keep us posted.