Hi all,
I became a Hifi enthusiast during my teens in the 90s, and around the year 2000 on the german "High End" fair I was lastingly impressed by some very nice small speakers, the System Audio SA2K:
Soon afterwards a similar kit from german Scan Speak distributor AOS was published in Hobby Hifi Magazine, the initial version of their Studio 12:
Xover was just a coil for the woofer, and for the tweeter a cap and a resistor in series, with additional RCL in parallel for impedance linearization at the resonance.
I just finished my civilian service and was paid some mandatory "bonus", which I wanted to invest in my first self build speakers, and I decided that the base of the speakers should be a pair of that sinfully expensive Scan Speak-Revelator 5" woofers relatively fresh to the market. As the budget was not allowing to also buy the 9800 tweeters, I decided to take some also new released Vifa XT300 ring radiators which were a good bit cheaper and showed very nice measurements in the magazines.
Lowpass for the woofer and cabinet tuning was taken over from the published AOS Studio 12 xover, the tweeter network was adjusted by using Hobby HiFi measurements of both the Studio 12 speaker and the Vifa and some calculations, and the verification of the result was done with a 5 € Panasonic mic capsule plus HobbyBox measurement software demo version. Still today I think the adjustment was plausible and the result pretty good.
In my romanticized memory at least, they were the coolest speakers I've ever built. I remember well that soon after I had finished them, some colleagues from my apprenticeship visited me and the evening ended sitting in my room in complete darkness, drinking beer and listening pretty loud to everyones music for hours. The guys had nothing to with hifi before, but everyone was absolutely impressed and flashed. At least two of them bought new stereos after that experience as I remember.
The only points of criticism I noticed over time were the tweeter, which sounded a bit lame on the upper end - but never annoying, and well integrated with the woofer. And the sticky coating of the woofers collected a lot of dust...
At some point few years later, I got tired of the very rough build - untreated chipboard, crossovers loose on the floor next to it, a gray plasic tube filled with bird sand as a stand (the sand kept trickling out) and got myself a new system with Canton Ergo something floorstanding speakers and sold the drivers.
Visually it was much better, but the sound was clearly some steps backwards and dissapointing.
Now, about 23 years and more than that number of speaker builds later, I want them back. They were absolutely lovely.
The easiest exercise would be to take just similar drivers and rebuild them. To overcome the mentioned drawbacks, just changing the woofer to one without coating (15W/4531G00):
And to overcome the bit lame highs, changing the tweeter from ring radiator to dome type with wider dispersion >10kHz (D2604/833000):
After having carried this thought for some time, I decided that would be too easy and boring as a development task. So I want to extend the concept to a 3-way floorstanding speaker, LR2 acoustical slopes, stepped baffle for tweeter sound origin / phase aligment. Challenge is to achieve good on-axis and power response with as little crossover parts as possible.
The midrange I want to use is fixed, Scan Speak Revelator 15M/8631G00.
According to initial simulations with the traced manufacturer measurements in Vituixcad, driver response and baffle diffraction in eclosures with 22-25cm width will complement each other very well:
Still not decided if I should take 1x 8" or 2x 6" as woofers:
Also still thinking about the tweeter, favourite is still Scan Speak D2604/833000 as mentioned before, but other tasty canidates are also on the table, in particular
the new D3004/602200:
the classic D2905/970000 as used in the SA2K:
the D2608/913000, liked and recommended by many:
Any thought, experiences, recommendations to a nice tweeter with matching sound signature?
Woofer section is the hardest choice. I like the visual appearance of the solution with 2x 6" more, but initial simulations with common canidates, e.g. SB17NRX2C35 show low impedance and too high sensitivity when 8 Ohm types wired in parallel, and too low sensitivity with 4 Ohm types in series.
Any recommendations/ideas for the woofer section from you? I'm a bit lost in analysis paralysis and would be happy for some feedback and discussion especially to that question! Thanks! 🙂
Best regards
Peter
I became a Hifi enthusiast during my teens in the 90s, and around the year 2000 on the german "High End" fair I was lastingly impressed by some very nice small speakers, the System Audio SA2K:
Soon afterwards a similar kit from german Scan Speak distributor AOS was published in Hobby Hifi Magazine, the initial version of their Studio 12:
Xover was just a coil for the woofer, and for the tweeter a cap and a resistor in series, with additional RCL in parallel for impedance linearization at the resonance.
I just finished my civilian service and was paid some mandatory "bonus", which I wanted to invest in my first self build speakers, and I decided that the base of the speakers should be a pair of that sinfully expensive Scan Speak-Revelator 5" woofers relatively fresh to the market. As the budget was not allowing to also buy the 9800 tweeters, I decided to take some also new released Vifa XT300 ring radiators which were a good bit cheaper and showed very nice measurements in the magazines.
Lowpass for the woofer and cabinet tuning was taken over from the published AOS Studio 12 xover, the tweeter network was adjusted by using Hobby HiFi measurements of both the Studio 12 speaker and the Vifa and some calculations, and the verification of the result was done with a 5 € Panasonic mic capsule plus HobbyBox measurement software demo version. Still today I think the adjustment was plausible and the result pretty good.
In my romanticized memory at least, they were the coolest speakers I've ever built. I remember well that soon after I had finished them, some colleagues from my apprenticeship visited me and the evening ended sitting in my room in complete darkness, drinking beer and listening pretty loud to everyones music for hours. The guys had nothing to with hifi before, but everyone was absolutely impressed and flashed. At least two of them bought new stereos after that experience as I remember.
The only points of criticism I noticed over time were the tweeter, which sounded a bit lame on the upper end - but never annoying, and well integrated with the woofer. And the sticky coating of the woofers collected a lot of dust...
At some point few years later, I got tired of the very rough build - untreated chipboard, crossovers loose on the floor next to it, a gray plasic tube filled with bird sand as a stand (the sand kept trickling out) and got myself a new system with Canton Ergo something floorstanding speakers and sold the drivers.
Visually it was much better, but the sound was clearly some steps backwards and dissapointing.
Now, about 23 years and more than that number of speaker builds later, I want them back. They were absolutely lovely.
The easiest exercise would be to take just similar drivers and rebuild them. To overcome the mentioned drawbacks, just changing the woofer to one without coating (15W/4531G00):
And to overcome the bit lame highs, changing the tweeter from ring radiator to dome type with wider dispersion >10kHz (D2604/833000):
After having carried this thought for some time, I decided that would be too easy and boring as a development task. So I want to extend the concept to a 3-way floorstanding speaker, LR2 acoustical slopes, stepped baffle for tweeter sound origin / phase aligment. Challenge is to achieve good on-axis and power response with as little crossover parts as possible.
The midrange I want to use is fixed, Scan Speak Revelator 15M/8631G00.
According to initial simulations with the traced manufacturer measurements in Vituixcad, driver response and baffle diffraction in eclosures with 22-25cm width will complement each other very well:
Still not decided if I should take 1x 8" or 2x 6" as woofers:
Also still thinking about the tweeter, favourite is still Scan Speak D2604/833000 as mentioned before, but other tasty canidates are also on the table, in particular
the new D3004/602200:
the classic D2905/970000 as used in the SA2K:
the D2608/913000, liked and recommended by many:
Any thought, experiences, recommendations to a nice tweeter with matching sound signature?
Woofer section is the hardest choice. I like the visual appearance of the solution with 2x 6" more, but initial simulations with common canidates, e.g. SB17NRX2C35 show low impedance and too high sensitivity when 8 Ohm types wired in parallel, and too low sensitivity with 4 Ohm types in series.
Any recommendations/ideas for the woofer section from you? I'm a bit lost in analysis paralysis and would be happy for some feedback and discussion especially to that question! Thanks! 🙂
Best regards
Peter
A great read, Peter! I'm in "that misfit club" that doesn't like HDS or NRX! Not sure what sensitivity you want. How about 2 x WF182BDxx and Hiquphon OWx?
Someone earlier this week in the thread "Best 8" woofer" was praising the Scanspeak Classic 21W/8555-10. I haven't heard it myself, but he convinced me to put it in my Wish List of drivers.
Assuming they can get as low as a single 8", I vote for 2x 6", that'll spread out any floor bounce resonances better
(& they do look cooler... As far as impedance goes, I'd use 2x 8 ohm in parallel, easier to deal with IME)
(& they do look cooler... As far as impedance goes, I'd use 2x 8 ohm in parallel, easier to deal with IME)
Iirc floor bounce typically is around 300-400Hz. Fairly high for the 15cm Revelator. One good 8 to 9” is cheaper than two 6-7”. Any thoughts on directivity control in matching mid and tweeter?
Thanks for your response. I also think that SB NRX17 is not the best choice as woofer (l very like the 15NBAC - for midrange use...), just took them initially due to lack of a better idea and to start somewhere.
Sensitivity after baffle step correction should be 87-88dB ideally. Here a simulation in Basta, 2x 8 Ohm type parallel is ~2dB too loud, 2x 4 Ohm type is series ~3 dB too quiet - okay I could adjust the mid to that level with resistors, but I want to avoid too much attenuation somehow. Simulations with other drivers show similar results...
Wavecore WF182BDx is ~230.- per piece here in Germany, when two of them are needed per speaker my budget is much overstrained for that project. Revelator 22W for ~350.- per speaker is also a bit too expensive.
Mmmh, thanks for pointing me to that specific driver, I also followed the 8" discussion. I like the Idea to mate the 15M revelator with classic 9700 tweeter and 21W woofer, feels like a well-rounded solution and might be just in budget. Will make some simulations and have a deeper look at that combination....
Cost-down option could be Discovery 22W and D2608/913000 as already considered, with eventually no drawback in perfomance.
Vifa/Peerless/Typmhany NE series has some nice 6" and 8" drivers that may fit well too, but no more available here as Tymphany is withdrawing from the DIY business.
Anyone experience with Satori MW16P or MW19P for woofer only use? This is another option I had in mind for the 2x woofer per side concept.
So, from the value/cost, sensitivity and impedance I like the 1x 8" solution better technically, from the visual appearance I prefer the 2x 6" concept. Today I tend to take the 1x 8" because the driver options on the table feel better. But at some point I will have to make a decision....
You mean this?
No, the drivers cannot be placed to avoid the floor bouncing by the depicted concept. But I think Peter just meant that the two woofers show higher directivity in the vertical domain, that helps to reduce the sound power pointing to the floor.
No further directivity control measures planned, it should be a traditional speaker without waveguide or so.
Best regards and a nice weekend to you all
Peter
Maybe it's a silly suggestion but why not tune them slightly lower and correct with larger series coil?
Addendum:
I just saw yesterday that digikey.at list the tymphany NE drivers as available, however 27 weeks delivery time. Anyone knows if that's correct?
Hi Peter:
I have experience with almost all drivers you mentioned so here are my recommendations.
15M and the tweeters you consider make a great combo so it pays of to consider woofer driver/s carefully.
SB17xxx - not good for woofer duty, really not good.
2x MW16 or MW19 - for both sound definetely better compared to SB17xxx. Good choice for 2way speakers, they offer good balance of bass and midrange quality and the measurements. But for woofer duty in 3way, hmmm no. If you are willing to conside Scan Speak, Peerless NE, Wavecors, these all are definitelly better for woofer duty in 3way. Better = bass and lower midrange quality is great.
Single WF223 - definitely yes.
Single 21W Classic - the best choice you have, sounds great, and is better then dual 6" woofers. Give it bucking magnet and 37l BR, measurements are in my 21W 12MU 9800 project at my website. This driver makes LR2 very easy, the breakup can be dealt with by the small cap across the primary coil in woofer crossover.
22W/4851 Revelator - expensice, excellent. But 21W is much cheaper, bass quality is not far behind, for me actually 21W does better bass.
2xWF182BD10 - definitely yes, bass quality is excellent.
2x18W Revelator - yesy yes yes. They would likely have higher Q so would benefit from backing magnet.
8" Punktkilde looks very good as well, 108eur at Soundimports. Models well in ~35l BR.
Some of Seas 8" would be good as well, though drivers should be visually matching, at least a bit. Most of the Seas drivers look totally different compared to 15M Rev.
I am fully for 1x8", placed close to midrange driver.
I have experience with almost all drivers you mentioned so here are my recommendations.
15M and the tweeters you consider make a great combo so it pays of to consider woofer driver/s carefully.
SB17xxx - not good for woofer duty, really not good.
2x MW16 or MW19 - for both sound definetely better compared to SB17xxx. Good choice for 2way speakers, they offer good balance of bass and midrange quality and the measurements. But for woofer duty in 3way, hmmm no. If you are willing to conside Scan Speak, Peerless NE, Wavecors, these all are definitelly better for woofer duty in 3way. Better = bass and lower midrange quality is great.
Single WF223 - definitely yes.
Single 21W Classic - the best choice you have, sounds great, and is better then dual 6" woofers. Give it bucking magnet and 37l BR, measurements are in my 21W 12MU 9800 project at my website. This driver makes LR2 very easy, the breakup can be dealt with by the small cap across the primary coil in woofer crossover.
22W/4851 Revelator - expensice, excellent. But 21W is much cheaper, bass quality is not far behind, for me actually 21W does better bass.
2xWF182BD10 - definitely yes, bass quality is excellent.
2x18W Revelator - yesy yes yes. They would likely have higher Q so would benefit from backing magnet.
8" Punktkilde looks very good as well, 108eur at Soundimports. Models well in ~35l BR.
Some of Seas 8" would be good as well, though drivers should be visually matching, at least a bit. Most of the Seas drivers look totally different compared to 15M Rev.
I am fully for 1x8", placed close to midrange driver.
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@PKAudio : Thanks a lot for sharing you experience!
Since some time I'm also on that trip to throw a bucking magnet to every woofer that cannot flee fast enough, and when it maks sense somehow... till now I always recogized improved quality and allowing better enclosure design/tuning options.
I'm drooling a bit now, but woofers for ~430.- per speaker are out of budget (as with the Wavecors and the 22W revelator), and letting that nice revelators doing just woofer duty feels also a little like throwing pearls to swine....
This might be the better solution probably... Thanks for your suggestions!
Best regards
Peter
The SB midwoofers show low distortions in the midrange in general, but with my limited experience with them and due to published measurement data I belive that their magnetic circuits all lack a bit of counterfield stability, which leads to some slightly "soft/muddy" tendency in the fundamentals. For midrange duty they are great, as midwoofers an option...
Thanks for the recommendation and application hints, the 21W is on top of the list for the 8" solution now. How do you think it will perform compared to the 22W Discovery woofer? 26W Discovery is the best woofer I ever used (but 26W is too large and needs too big enclosure for the actual concept)
Since some time I'm also on that trip to throw a bucking magnet to every woofer that cannot flee fast enough, and when it maks sense somehow... till now I always recogized improved quality and allowing better enclosure design/tuning options.
Uh, thats a nice Idea, especially because one of my past dream speakers long ago is the Sonus Faber Cremona, just beautiful design:
I'm drooling a bit now, but woofers for ~430.- per speaker are out of budget (as with the Wavecors and the 22W revelator), and letting that nice revelators doing just woofer duty feels also a little like throwing pearls to swine....
Could be an idea, will have a look at them deeper. Same price range than the 21W classic.
This might be the better solution probably... Thanks for your suggestions!
Best regards
Peter
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@Kwesi
If you are planning to not use a waveguide, then I suspect that you are aiming for low directivity/wide dispersion. In that case, I vote for optimizing your baffle dimensions and facets/round-over for diffraction management based on your choice of midrange and tweeter diameters.
Then once you've decided what the width you need for your cabinets, choose an acceptable depth (and thus volume). Now select woofers that will fit in your front panel and plays well in an ordinary passive un-boosted alignment.
-
Of course if you use DSP you can shoehorn slightly bigger drivers into slightly smaller cabinets, and equalize the low end.
Peerless, Scan-Speak and Wavecor, newer SEAS (ER18/L16 and newer) all have excellent low end. Of course Purifi but if you're not using its midrange too, it seems a bit of a waste.
Edit: Cremona is a classic look. But I'm not sure twin 7" is enough, if you are used to 10" woofers. Consider triple 7" or twin 8"
If you are planning to not use a waveguide, then I suspect that you are aiming for low directivity/wide dispersion. In that case, I vote for optimizing your baffle dimensions and facets/round-over for diffraction management based on your choice of midrange and tweeter diameters.
Then once you've decided what the width you need for your cabinets, choose an acceptable depth (and thus volume). Now select woofers that will fit in your front panel and plays well in an ordinary passive un-boosted alignment.
-
Of course if you use DSP you can shoehorn slightly bigger drivers into slightly smaller cabinets, and equalize the low end.
Peerless, Scan-Speak and Wavecor, newer SEAS (ER18/L16 and newer) all have excellent low end. Of course Purifi but if you're not using its midrange too, it seems a bit of a waste.
Edit: Cremona is a classic look. But I'm not sure twin 7" is enough, if you are used to 10" woofers. Consider triple 7" or twin 8"
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I was going to mention the Discovery 8", but you never mentioned budget and had a lot of Scanspeaks listed, so I assumed cost was less of an issue for you.
There are quite a few Vifas available on AliExpress, 6-1/2", 8", and 10".
I am also in the same camp as motokok. I don't like the HDS/9130 tweeters. They sound hyped and artificial.
I like the 9700 idea, or either of the newer textiles from SS.
Some of the best 8" bass I've heard has been from these particular woofers, in no particular order:
Dayton RSS210, pick your model.
Dayton RS225
HiVi M8a/n
SS Rev 22W/8857T
Peerless SLS8
Vifa PL22
Usher 8955
SS 21W/8555
I like the 9700 idea, or either of the newer textiles from SS.
Some of the best 8" bass I've heard has been from these particular woofers, in no particular order:
Dayton RSS210, pick your model.
Dayton RS225
HiVi M8a/n
SS Rev 22W/8857T
Peerless SLS8
Vifa PL22
Usher 8955
SS 21W/8555
Have to consider them NLA, unfortunately. Minimum order quantity in the hundreds.
Everyone is using 21W, and perhaps rightly so!
But here at least is another 2 x 6" option - maybe not a visual match for the Revelator, but it was noticed in the 8" thread that the frame and magnet of the Fountek midwoofers look suspiciously like Wavecor! Here the datasheet for the FW168 /K with fancy grille. Doesn't look like a bass monster, but otherwise in budget and should match target sensitivity. Still available to buy in Europe.
If target sensitivity is 87 ish then I remind of Hiquphon options - as Rev + OW1 combo is praised a lot in Paul Carmody's Carrera, and there cannot be that many other tweeters that have as easy response curve for LR2.
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I'm not sure I buy Fountek being made with Wavecor parts, especially since Fountek is also going defunct. If anything, Fountek looked like Audible Physic drivers.
I did not hear 22W disco yet, just 26W disco woofer. I liked it a lot, it had certain good characteristics similar to other scan speak woofers, it is well built and looks good. 21W Classic (33l BR, added magnet, LR2 500Hz) plays all the low level nuances with ease, remains well sounding to the high listening levels, has somehow richer or fuller sound compared to woofers with alu cones (that is feature of basically all paper cone woofers). I would like 22W disco to have similar characteristics but I think if will be different type of the bass, not necessarily worse though, it has lighter cone and different material.