Hey, I'm searching for low frequency/ subwoofer driver for an ongoing floor standing speaker project.
I currently am testing out a 12" driver with a matching passive radiator ( DSA315-8 + DSA315-PR from Parts Express). They were the first thing I tried, and they do the job without any performance issues. SPL is more than adequate, distortion is low, extends lower than I need in 45 liter cabinet, etc.
Why do I want different drivers if these are working? Using the passive radiators was a compromise I made early on, but I'm questioning if that was necessary. I would like this woofer to be sealed. Also, I'm a little suspicious of being a rookie at this and having my first impulse turn out to be the best solution. And I'm not entirely happy with the build quality and aesthetics of the drivers.
My critera is:
12" or bigger
-F3 of ~45hz, and up to ~200hz in less than 75 liters sealed cabinet
-looks like a pro audio woofer, so not a high excursion subwoofer.
-max price up to maybe $300 each?
-power handling is irrelevent, but I guess 200+ watts.
-looks ok next to my coaxial drivers, which are B&C 12FHX76
The only driver I found in my price range that is a pro audio woofer and has an F3 of ~45hz in 75 liters (sealed) is the Eminence Lab 12 woofer.
https://www.parts-express.com/Eminence-LAB-12-Professional-12-Subwoofer-Speaker-290-570
I currently am testing out a 12" driver with a matching passive radiator ( DSA315-8 + DSA315-PR from Parts Express). They were the first thing I tried, and they do the job without any performance issues. SPL is more than adequate, distortion is low, extends lower than I need in 45 liter cabinet, etc.
Why do I want different drivers if these are working? Using the passive radiators was a compromise I made early on, but I'm questioning if that was necessary. I would like this woofer to be sealed. Also, I'm a little suspicious of being a rookie at this and having my first impulse turn out to be the best solution. And I'm not entirely happy with the build quality and aesthetics of the drivers.
My critera is:
12" or bigger
-F3 of ~45hz, and up to ~200hz in less than 75 liters sealed cabinet
-looks like a pro audio woofer, so not a high excursion subwoofer.
-max price up to maybe $300 each?
-power handling is irrelevent, but I guess 200+ watts.
-looks ok next to my coaxial drivers, which are B&C 12FHX76
The only driver I found in my price range that is a pro audio woofer and has an F3 of ~45hz in 75 liters (sealed) is the Eminence Lab 12 woofer.
https://www.parts-express.com/Eminence-LAB-12-Professional-12-Subwoofer-Speaker-290-570
I'm actually looking for something similar, although I want:
No bigger than 12"
Possible to get ~95dB SPL @ 20hz < 500w in a sealed enclosure
Cheaper is better, but realistically I could talk myself into $450 ea if need be.
Doesn't look stupid (the AE TD12S would fit most criteria but the bullet dome doesn't fit my aesthetic goals)
Low distortion throughout passband (want to cross around 200 or so)
The CSS SDX12 is the closest I've found but the low sensitivity is making me think twice.
No bigger than 12"
Possible to get ~95dB SPL @ 20hz < 500w in a sealed enclosure
Cheaper is better, but realistically I could talk myself into $450 ea if need be.
Doesn't look stupid (the AE TD12S would fit most criteria but the bullet dome doesn't fit my aesthetic goals)
Low distortion throughout passband (want to cross around 200 or so)
The CSS SDX12 is the closest I've found but the low sensitivity is making me think twice.
If you can use a larger box, there are more options. I used Vituix cad, and just scrolled through their included speaker database. You can set a cabinet size and then scroll down through the speaker list. And the list can be sorted by make, size, etc.
I ended up just buying a pair of the Lab 12 drivers. They will work in as little as 1 cubic foot, which helps reduce the overall size of my speaker design. And it seems it is a somewhat famous driver design. I guess it was designed for the "Lab Horn" speaker design.
According to Vituix software, it is excursion limited at 375 watts, making 112dB spl...in a 30L/ 1 cubic foot box. F3 of 47hz. Making the box bigger gives a shallower roll off, but the F3 stays about the same.
The aesthetics are pretty decent for my use.
The LAB12 is really just a regular subwoofer driver, using technology from 2 decades ago. It shares more in common with that class of driver than it does with other “pro audio” drivers. It’s still a relatively good value and performer as a regular car/HT/music sub driver. You can get similar drivers that can handle more power, have twice the excursion if you want. They will either be more expensive or from China, and require more power.
The lab horn design just so happened to require something that was more like a high power car sub driver than the usual driver used in bass horns (ie, EVM15L). The design trade offs were different from the typical W-bin.
The lab horn design just so happened to require something that was more like a high power car sub driver than the usual driver used in bass horns (ie, EVM15L). The design trade offs were different from the typical W-bin.
If you happen to know of a 12" or 15" subwoofer with a proper folded cloth surround, that has an F3 of 45hz in a small sealed box, I'm still open to suggestions. I like that aesthetic, but I haven't found one.
I think it is a little unfair to say it is "just" a normal subwoofer. I don't have any specific attachment to it, but it is the only one I found that meets my criteria. I guess I like it because it is not all the things the other subs are trying to be. I don't have any use for the loudest, the lowest, the newest, etc.
I already have 2 RSS265HF-4 10" subs in the design. Those are rear facing and handle the lowest bass. These Lab 12s will be front facing, so aesthetics is more important. I don't like the look of the huge surrounds on high excursion subs. Plus, the high excursion sub would be wasted, because this front woofer will have a high pass filter at ~50hz. So no point in getting a woofer that goes much lower than that.
(Un)fortunately since my last post I discovered the Kartesian brand. I think everything they have is rightly considered overpriced, with the possible exception of their 26mm tweeter (crazy wide dispersion for the money) and their 12" woofer, which if the FR plots are reliable, has the flattest response between 20-200hz that I have seen so far. I say unfortunately because they are 550 EUR each.
All that said I'm trying to convince myself that the 10" CSS drivers will get me the performance I want between 20-200ish because they're $250 and I would like to keep this build a little more compact if I can.
@fredygump if infrabass is already handled by the rear drivers I think you have more appealing options for the 12s on the front. Hificompass has measured a lot of good woofers that do best in the 45+ range.
All that said I'm trying to convince myself that the 10" CSS drivers will get me the performance I want between 20-200ish because they're $250 and I would like to keep this build a little more compact if I can.
@fredygump if infrabass is already handled by the rear drivers I think you have more appealing options for the 12s on the front. Hificompass has measured a lot of good woofers that do best in the 45+ range.
Do you have a link? Or do you know what box volume he is testing with? It's the box volume that is tripping me up. I would expect most 12" drivers should play down to 45hz in the right size enclosure.
I'm relying on the VitriuxCAD, but I don't know how accurate it is. I do know that I built two different size cabinets for the 12" woofer + 12" PR combo, and they perform similarly. One is 45L and one is 75L (Vitriux only works in metric, and I don't remember cubic feet...). The in room frequency response is very similar. Both drop off at ~30hz. But the 45L box is supposed to have an F3 of 43hz, and the 75L box is supposed to have an F3 of 33hz.
I doubt you’ll find one with an accordion surround that fits the bill. The f3 would be in the 80’s at least. Back in the day you could get a more or less “normal” woofer that would be exactly what you want, but foam surround. Absolute unobtainium today - they are just not marketable so nobody makes them. 30 years ago common as dirt, and about $40. A near drop-in for a LAB12 in small to medium sealed boxes - other than about half the x-max. Which you don’t need more of for a more modest system.
Attachments
High sensitivity drivers with stiff accordion surround.
Will require large box.
60 to 80 Hz is more feasible for sealed.
45 Hz is more feasible with
traditionally subs
mechanically work better in smaller boxes.
in 50 to 75 liters sealed
Will require large box.
60 to 80 Hz is more feasible for sealed.
45 Hz is more feasible with
traditionally subs
mechanically work better in smaller boxes.
GRS 12SW-4HE
Will do 42 to 47 Hzin 50 to 75 liters sealed
Genelec uses a front facing 14" driver with an accordion surround in their W371A. I assume it is completely custom. They say it plays up to 500hz, and I assume it extends down to ~50hz, if they're using it the way I assume they are.
I hadn't thought about it before, but what you say fits with the trend of small speakers combined with a dedicated subwoofer. If you have a subwoofer, it doesn't make sense to have a driver that extends much below 90hz.
Does a speaker with an f3 of 45hz qualify as a subwoofer? I feel like this thread being sent to the subwoofer section just confirms the almost non-existence of a "normal" woofer that extends down below 90hz.
@fredygump, is DSP an option for you? It might allow you to get to achieve your Fc and volume (spatial) goals as long as you are mindful of Xmax. I currently use some pro accordion 12" in about 30L sealed and miniDSP'd with in-room bass into the upper 30s. Not very loud, but I also used the woofers I had on hand.
Yes, I am using DSP for each individual driver. I hadn't thought about manipulating the frequency response curve like that. It seems like it could work. I don't need crazy SPL. The subwoofer drivers (10") I'm using are excursion limited at around 105dB. A pro woofer would have another 10dB or so max output? So yeah, I guess I could boost low frequencies by ~10dB without issues.
If you want a small box and a powerful motor the un-equalised f3 of the box will be high. Even though you will have to EQ the box resulting in a higher voltage requirment from the amplifier using a high motor force driver like https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/lf-driver/12-0/8/12bg100 will result in a more efficient speaker than using a heavy low fs car audio driver as the electrical impedance of the box will be higher. If you are going to use EQ you should be looking for as great as posible volume displacement capability and effective motor force (Bl^2/Re). Foam surrounds are better for high excursion drivers. For a sealed box the volume displacement is ultimatly determing the maximum SPL at bass frequencies.
@fredygump You can filter it down to 12"+ LF drivers here, there are a handful: https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements
I think he measures them on a large open baffle but don't quote me on that.
I think he measures them on a large open baffle but don't quote me on that.
what if: 2 dayton 265ho4 vented/TL to 20-25hz as you have(?) and 2 more sealed to the higher f3 number(sorry never modeled them sealed)
I like the B&C 12TBX100 in a EQed sealed box. It has a lower Fs (42 hz) and more xmax (8mm) than most commonly available cloth surround 12" drivers. You can push it down past 30 hz and it won't complain. Very natural sounding too and can cleanly go into midbass territory if it needs to.
Keep in mind, your power handling will go down EQing it lower in a smaller sealed box due to lack of VC venting. That will be the limiting factor playing it loud for extended periods. Thats why I'd pick a pro sound driver with 4" VC.
Close. The subs are actually RSS265HF-4 10", vented, F3 is ~20hz. I definitely could use the equivalent Dayton sub sealed, but the flabby surround, though... I guess that's just my preference to have a less pronounced surround on the front facing woofers.
This is where I'm at. The box is crude, but I just threw it together tonight to test. In the final cabinet they will be spaced closer together. Probably rear mounted. I think they look pretty decent together. I said I liked the aesthetic of the accordion surround, but of course both of these have a foam surround. And matching surround types is probably better aesthetically.
My first choice for the coaxials was Beyma 12CXA400ND coaxials, which has the accordion surround. It's a sad story--I bought them for a great price on Ebay, but they showed up with almost no packaging, broken and bent. So the B&C was is my second choice. If I had the Beymas, I'd work harder to have a woofer with an accordion suround, since that is what the Beyma driver has.
I don't mean to mislead you guys. I ordered the Lab 12s not long after I posted. I'd need a compelling reason to purchase another driver to test.
Noted. I'm probably not playing it that loud or for that long? I want everything to be capable of 105+dB, not for regular use, but for headroom and for the rare occasion I want to really crank things up. The 105dB is dictated by the 10" subwoofer, which is the weakest link.