Since I'm building my own home from scratch I have a few options doing cooler things than average, whilst still keeping the wife somewhat happy.
My latest plan is to;
1/ Get a Danley DTS10
2/ Put it in my office (which borders on my livingroom home cinema)
Which will then look something like this: (of course the black part will be hidden behind the white panel)
Is this actually a good idea? =) Thoughts welcome. Or should I try infinite baffle? (i am worried it would make the office unlivable during a good movie on the other side?)
My latest plan is to;
1/ Get a Danley DTS10
2/ Put it in my office (which borders on my livingroom home cinema)
Which will then look something like this: (of course the black part will be hidden behind the white panel)
Is this actually a good idea? =) Thoughts welcome. Or should I try infinite baffle? (i am worried it would make the office unlivable during a good movie on the other side?)
If it's a good location acoustically.
If the sub is (also) for movies, then IB since some movies go well below THX's 20 Hz: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...mate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html
If the sub is (also) for movies, then IB since some movies go well below THX's 20 Hz: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-...mate-list-bass-movies-w-frequency-charts.html
It depends on the type of alignment, driver specs and its flare, frequency factors, but in general; yes, though if the vented alignment's tuning is pushed low enough for its higher system group delay to decay to an acceptable number up where our hearing acuity is improving, then from a practical POV, no.
Really, a reactance annulled BLH seems to me to be the ideal (sub) woofer, i.e. driver Fs is the mean between its two mass corners based on building a small HF one to keep size/construction manageable way back when, but its sheer size for (infra/sub) bass makes even some of the behemoths found online seem somewhat undersized/compromised and while its efficiency is the theoretical 50% max, its peak output is still governed by Hoffman, so basically looks like a VLF IB alignment from a power plot POV.
In short, when only the best total performance will do, then IB is the way and use as many drivers/amp power is required to get the desired low frequency output at fractional Xmax.
If still not convinced, please consider that the Engineer that designed many of the pioneer's best horn systems chose IB for his personal stereo system.
Really, a reactance annulled BLH seems to me to be the ideal (sub) woofer, i.e. driver Fs is the mean between its two mass corners based on building a small HF one to keep size/construction manageable way back when, but its sheer size for (infra/sub) bass makes even some of the behemoths found online seem somewhat undersized/compromised and while its efficiency is the theoretical 50% max, its peak output is still governed by Hoffman, so basically looks like a VLF IB alignment from a power plot POV.
In short, when only the best total performance will do, then IB is the way and use as many drivers/amp power is required to get the desired low frequency output at fractional Xmax.
If still not convinced, please consider that the Engineer that designed many of the pioneer's best horn systems chose IB for his personal stereo system.
In the link kindly supplied by GM, is a chimney-related enclosure reminiscent of those Briggs (Wharfdale) used to write about, decades ago.
DIY house sure sounds like a great opportunity. I used such an opportunity to make a large sealed space using walls of the concrete foundation and 9 smallish drivers, with 5 facing forward. ("9" is a magic number for drivers.) I wonder if the present owners of the house know it is there?
Beyond the wisdom of GM, I'd only add that nobody I know ever said the Danley pseudo-horn was a quality sub-woofer, just a kind of clever, simple, and loud concept with few adherent elsewhere but this forum.
As for too much sound in the office in the backside of the wall, unlikely there're occasions when somebody wants to play low frequencies real loud while somebody else is having work-time. Easy to control the sub amp.
B.
DIY house sure sounds like a great opportunity. I used such an opportunity to make a large sealed space using walls of the concrete foundation and 9 smallish drivers, with 5 facing forward. ("9" is a magic number for drivers.) I wonder if the present owners of the house know it is there?
Beyond the wisdom of GM, I'd only add that nobody I know ever said the Danley pseudo-horn was a quality sub-woofer, just a kind of clever, simple, and loud concept with few adherent elsewhere but this forum.
As for too much sound in the office in the backside of the wall, unlikely there're occasions when somebody wants to play low frequencies real loud while somebody else is having work-time. Easy to control the sub amp.
B.
I'm not 100% sure what you're saying 'yes and no' to here =) - "Good idea?" or "try IB"?
As I understand it the Danleys are indeed doing that reactance annulling to get some 'free bass boost'
Fair point, I guess with the Danley I imagine (?) that I get a somewhat-IB-level quality without having to do very hardcore house engineering.
Do you have some design schematics of your house that I could look at?
I certainly have some space I could use to disperse the waves but really manually building a speaker array into a wall feels overkill
So you're not a fan I take it =) - in my world the 'quality' of a subwoofer has fairly little to do with distortion (e.g. https://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/distortion) so indeed any sub that can create a somewhat flat, or flat-correctable-with-digital-magic-whilst-keeping-sufficient-oomph output seems fine?
Can you elaborate on why you think the danleys are not fit for purpose (in my case: providing most of the LFE for movies, I was planning to add two svs3000 micros to compensate for peaks and nulls in the room left by the single sub..
Or is that blasphemy. I'm new here. 🙂
Well.. the situation imagined is my kid and his friends playing a movie, while me and the missus retreating into the office/seating room. It would be 'fine' to have a decent amount of spill-over noise but we certainly wouldn't want to endure movie-level asplosions while having a glass of wine 😉
By the way, to clarify my thinking, as per data-bass Ricci - "Between 13-26Hz octave the DTS-10 is exceptionally clean and high output and has a different signature than other systems." - I was imagining using the DTS pretty much only in that range, where 2xSVS3000 micros can take over at 30. So I would use a miniDSP to do the crossover and presto.
Having read the Ricci report (wonderful to have these reports), I'd only say a lot of driver (2 x 12-inch) and a lot of labyrinth can result in pretty good sound (like my 17-foot 12-Hz unit). But Ricci's peculiar (non-log) distortion plot is visually misleading: looking close, the distortion isn't exceptional for two drivers and a big labyrinth (25% in the region where it counts a lot and not much below 10% and just forget north of 100 Hz). I think all those impedance horrors he records arise from an undamped long pipe (TL is cousin to the Danley)... which accounts for getting more oomph from a Danley for less cone motion.
Interesting to read that Danley had front/back mounting.... just like my 9 8-inch drivers. For me, all my magnet force enclosed in a sealed box benefitted from all that concrete making for a really solid box of maybe 20+ cu feet. I say "maybe" because I made it in 1980. Nicely supported my two large electrostatic panels made with Dayton-Wright cells and my DIY direct-drive high-voltage Sanders amp.
B.
Interesting to read that Danley had front/back mounting.... just like my 9 8-inch drivers. For me, all my magnet force enclosed in a sealed box benefitted from all that concrete making for a really solid box of maybe 20+ cu feet. I say "maybe" because I made it in 1980. Nicely supported my two large electrostatic panels made with Dayton-Wright cells and my DIY direct-drive high-voltage Sanders amp.
B.
So "not a bad sub" to go for then, huh? 😉
Funny you mention that, my fronts are quad 2912 electrostats. Great minds? 😉
I'm still pondering the IB and/or solid box approach, the danley itself is 23 cu feet FWIW.
Hey, we're forgetting Klipschorns. They pair wonderfully with ESLs and produce more and better bass than anything else suitable for homes. Nothing fills a room quite the same way. Fabulous on organ music.
For DIY house, some valuable opportunities to create a great corner for 'em.
But.... some might delight in earthquakes and unnatural movie tracks which is not in the Klipschorn's ability to play. But a simple matter to make a small sub-sub to handle one octave, to heck with distortion.
BTW, big debates about how many subs are needed. Many on this forum have testified there is no directionality on music playback below 120 Hz (or even higher in my very long experience, assuming low distortion and sharp XO slopes). Multiple subs wrangle the accoustics and are valuable in that light - which may not apply to your DIY house. One sub is all you need, but should be a good one (some may differ in that opinion).
B.
For DIY house, some valuable opportunities to create a great corner for 'em.
But.... some might delight in earthquakes and unnatural movie tracks which is not in the Klipschorn's ability to play. But a simple matter to make a small sub-sub to handle one octave, to heck with distortion.
BTW, big debates about how many subs are needed. Many on this forum have testified there is no directionality on music playback below 120 Hz (or even higher in my very long experience, assuming low distortion and sharp XO slopes). Multiple subs wrangle the accoustics and are valuable in that light - which may not apply to your DIY house. One sub is all you need, but should be a good one (some may differ in that opinion).
B.
Yeah in this case my ESLs are quite capable of music - I run them in stereo for that, subs unnecessary. (ok, maybe booming organ music but in most cases all fine). So this really is for the 'unnatural movie tracks' stuff.
A worry of mine with the DTS10 is that it's just 'flimsy' wood, which might mean the 10Hz is even only reached because of the resonance of the actual physical box.
But what GM posted - - did get me thinking.
I literally have a column of 'dead air' in my office - pessimistically it's about 20 cu feet.. would just putting the most expensive 15" driver and 1000W of amp in there be a 'sane' approach?
A worry of mine with the DTS10 is that it's just 'flimsy' wood, which might mean the 10Hz is even only reached because of the resonance of the actual physical box.
But what GM posted - - did get me thinking.
I literally have a column of 'dead air' in my office - pessimistically it's about 20 cu feet.. would just putting the most expensive 15" driver and 1000W of amp in there be a 'sane' approach?
I don't think there's much dispute that a sealed box is second only to a perfect true-horn for quality with Rice-Kellogg drivers. But - unless quite large - it raises the resonance unacceptably high*. No sim needed. Just add enough felt to impair inside echoes.
BTW, with such a big box and stuffing, no need to seal it tight.... and so system resonance is lowered.
B.
* or you can get a driver with a super low resonance, like AR speakers 60 years ago.
BTW, with such a big box and stuffing, no need to seal it tight.... and so system resonance is lowered.
B.
* or you can get a driver with a super low resonance, like AR speakers 60 years ago.
Toot.
So what I could do is make a brick box (or perhaps concrete is possible.. big deal?) all the way from concrete floor to concrete ceiling, and pad it with tons of felt.
But sealing it tight would prevent sound leaking (into my office) no?
Time machine? 🙂
Seriously, what's a good modern driver that would work well here? I can probably just fit an 18" in there.
One question about subs - how big does the opening in front of a driver have to be? Of course most subs show pretty much the entire driver, but for aesthetics and practicalities (remember - I'm punching through a wall) I would prefer to make a smallish hole (grate?) in the wall. Would - say - a 5 by 5 inch hole suffice?
Making the cabinet out of concrete when your walls will shake far more than a well braced cabinet is not useful.
You could fit several 18" in the 20 cubic foot cabinet in post #12.
A pair of 18" B&C 18DS115 in a 14 cubic foot box tuned to around 14Hz could provide more LF output than the DTS-10, without the upper "ringing". Take a look at Data Bass report on the X21-BC21DS115-4.
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5afdc4a68a2a8000041c7999?_k=rpqq6o
Down to 16Hz, a pair of B&C 18DS115 would easily have +6dB over the pair of dual 8" SVS Micro3000 which would max out at about 114dB one meter @24mm excursion. Looking at the magnet structure of the driver used in the Micro3000 24mm Xmax looks way optimistic, while the 18DS115 Xvar of 16.5mm is quite realistically achievable without distress.
The X21-BC21DS115-4 used a 6" port, a little noise was noticed at full power.
That said, a little port noise compared to the sound of windows rattling and various stuff falling off walls when reaching 120dB/one meter at 16Hz is not a big concern 😉 .
Art
Sorry for the newbie questions but I'm not sure what you mean. How will the walls shake? Just because there is a "good subwoofer" embedded in them that is making the glasses rattle when the helicopter flying overhead?
Or are you saying that making an enclosure out of a house wall has little benefit over just putting a sealed sub system 'against the wall'
OK so you would just stack 2 subwoofers (completely built) into the cabinet and be done with it, rather than build a subwoofer out of the cabinet?
I have no 'gut feel' about how air movement works, can two subs sealed into a cabinet 'breathe' enough through the proposed hole?
The main point - at least in my theory - of the micro3000's is to flatten out nulls and peaks due to room characteristics. Of course I have no illusion they could fix up the infrasonics but in the 30+ Hz range they might be able to do something useful
This hobby is a bunch of 'ifs, ands, buts, yets, tradeoffs' thanks mainly to the room's acoustics and desired performance, so I gave the best answer I could, but now with your '13-26 Hz' limit, i.e. not interested in getting the absolute most that some movies offer; the DTS10 is as good a choice as any for high SQ reproduction, just believe for the money an IB covering a wider BW is a better choice overall. FYI/FWIW, here's a stereo pair for sale in Stamford, CT..
Right, a tapped pipe/horn by definition is reactance annulled to a certain extent with the DTS series the most due to its 1/4 WL stub, ergo an extra ~1/2 octave vs a simple ~end loaded one only reactance annulling the driver somewhere around/at its upper mass corner.
Correct, plus for some it's a 'bragging rights' sort of purchase.
No it's for real and if constructed with 3/4" BB, apple or marine no void plywood is anything but 'flimsy' and combined with all the pathway dividers, well done bracing, grove joints, most folks could only wish they could afford this inert a whole house.
Continuing my 'broken record' replies, a DSP'd IB 'infinite' array of drivers at relatively modest power (no worry about the usual thermal power compression for sustained VLF) can match/best a single larger driver column in every way.
OK, I build myself a pair of floor to ceiling corner line sources for my contry house from the 50s. They use 18 4" wide band drivers each. Its a basic house built with wodden planks etc. I made the enclosure out of a concrete baffle and MDF for the rest. When EQ and pushed by my Icepower APS1000, the rattling of the walls is as loud as the speaker themselves.. 🙂 What they are saying above is that if you do a really competent bass system, you better have a sturdy building to go along or you will just listen to rattling floors/walls/windows etc... its true.
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