Big drivers for sealed subwoofer but with good sound up to 100-150Hz

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Yotomeczek

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Joined 2011
#1
New project - inspirated by DynamiKKs Monitor 12/18.
Speakers: one coaxial 10-12" and woofer 18" or 2x15" in sealed box. I like quick bass with a punch 🙂
Active powered by Hypex FA 503 with build in DSP (or FA 253)
What woofer will be best for low bass up to 100-150 Hz? Typical great subwoofer like Dayton RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO I think will be not good sounding up to 100-150 Hz - or Am I wrong? Any propositons for good soundings coaxial?

Best so far:
FaitalPro 18XL1800 (F3 55 Hz in 95 dm3)
BMS 18N862 (F3 55 Hz in 95 dm3)

Coaxial likely:
BMS 12C382 (F3 136 Hz in 11 dm3) This one need woofer working well up to 130 Hz or so
FaitalPro 12HX230 (F3 94 Hz in 40 dm3) This one need woofer working well up to 100 Hz or so
B&C 12NCX (F3 88 Hz in 60 dm3) This one need woofer working well up to 100 Hz or so

DynamiKKs Monitor 12/18 (bass-reflex)
speaker-1.png
 
#2
I just built a TL out of the new GRS 10" Pro driver and it is very nice and punchy doing it's thing from. 40-150. It's not expensive either but you're still gonna need something big like you mentioned I think to get down further.

So my advice is to pro for punch.
Get a 15 or 18 for the very bottom.
Let them do what they do best.
I have the 15 Ref in a TL line too. It's very nice and deep.
 
#4
dave 111 said:
I just built a TL out of the new GRS 10" Pro driver and it is very nice and punchy doing it's thing from. 40-150. It's not expensive either but you're still gonna need something big like you mentioned I think to get down further.

So my advice is to pro for punch.
Get a 15 or 18 for the very bottom.
Let them do what they do best.
I have the 15 Ref in a TL line too. It's very nice and deep.
Click to expand...
Did you happen to do a build thread on the 15" TL?
 
#6
Yotomeczek said:
Typical great subwoofer like Dayton RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO I think will be not good sounding up to 100-150 Hz - or Am I wrong?
Click to expand...

Technically, it's pretty much ideal spec wise, published plots, so if it goes loud enough at low distortion and /or unless it has some known construction and/or power handling issues, then no reason to spend more.
 
#7
GM said:
Technically, it's pretty much ideal spec wise, published plots, so if it goes loud enough at low distortion and /or unless it has some known construction and/or power handling issues, then no reason to spend more.
Click to expand...
This Dayton is perfect for subwoofer - but is it good for music up to 120Hz or more? Good coaxial BMS 12C382 have F3 136 Hz in 11 dm3 dealed cabinet, how high must subwoofer have f3 to match them together? Electronic crossover in mind.
 
#9
I have a friend with practice in audio DIY and in his opinion 18" woofer with Mms about 250g is audibly colors the sound when play over 100-110 Hz. Maybe it's only his driver (Eighteensound 18NTLW5000). What is interesting this is regardless what of type of housing (Sealed, OB).
Smaller woofer is ok but when it will be corrected by DPS it could be on its limit.
Maybe 2x15" would be ok, but most of Dayton 15-teens is 4 Ohm, so parallel connection give 2 Ohm (too low) and serial connection give 8 Ohm (less power from amp).
Any one have listen Dayton RSS460HO-4 crossovered over 100 Hz?
 
#10
Moving mass alone has nothing to do with a driver's ability to play up high. The only things that really matter are it's frequency response, both on and off axis, in other words is it physically capable of going that high, and then it's harmonic distortion.

Many 18" cannot play up high because of severe breakup and very high inductance. The Dayton does not fall into this category. It's rigid aluminium cone keeps it free from breakup until 2kHz. This will impact the harmonic distortion performance and will limit is useful range to about 600Hz when crossed with a 4th order filter.

The motor, on the other hand, has been designed with extensive shorting rings to keep distortion well controlled with rising frequency. Zaph has measured the 8" version, which shares the same motor design, and that could be used up to 1kHz with the limit being the cone, not the motor.

I would expect the 18" to be very similar and realistically I would expect it's off axis to be it's limiting factor. That is if you want to use it no higher than it's omnidirectional range. It should be fine going up to 300Hz.
 
#11
Yotomeczek said:
I have a friend with practice in audio DIY and in his opinion 18" woofer with Mms about 250g is audibly colors the sound when play over 100-110 Hz. Maybe it's only his driver (Eighteensound 18NTLW5000). What is interesting this is regardless what of type of housing (Sealed, OB).
Smaller woofer is ok but when it will be corrected by DPS it could be on its limit.
Maybe 2x15" would be ok, but most of Dayton 15-teens is 4 Ohm, so parallel connection give 2 Ohm (too low) and serial connection give 8 Ohm (less power from amp).
Any one have listen Dayton RSS460HO-4 crossovered over 100 Hz?
Click to expand...
His experience seems very plausible. 15" seems to be a real sweet spot for woofers and subs.

I think we need to get a handle on what overall sensitivity you desire, max SPL, and bass extension. In any case you will probably have to pad down the coax to match the woofer. Once we nail down the requirements we will have a better idea of what direction to go. If you want extension down to 32Hz or below at high output levels you may need to consider porting or transmission line. Of course the room gain of your listening room will make a big difference.

All your coax speakers are 8 ohm and the Daytons are all 4 ohm. That may be fine if your amplifier is OK with it but it may be a consideration.

If high efficiency and max SPL are important something like the Eminence Delta 15LFA might work out nicely. Hornresp simulation indicates a -6dB point at about the low E on a bass guitar in a 300L sealed box. Le is only about 1.4mH and should easily handle 500Hz. If your room has a decent amount of room gain it might have pretty good practical extension. Driven to Xmax one of the Deltas should remain above 100dB/m down to about 22Hz not counting room gain. Sensitivity should match up pretty well with your coax and they are also 8 ohm drivers and not super expensive. I would guess that the higher end pro driver manufacturers probably have similar units.

delta15lf-png.1013804
 

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#12
Moving mass tells more about how it can play on low wattage to a certain extend, but that is it. High moving mass need some power to start moving right (that means more than a few watt for a real high mms). But not for how it will play frequency wise. With extreme low power and high efficient speakers you want a low mms, but for the rest it's not that important.
 
#13
Thank you all for the discussion - there is a big repository of knowledge.
This speakers will be powered by Hypex FusionAmp Fa 503 (2x 500W/4Ohm RMS + 1x 100W RMS or 2x 350W/8Ohm RMS + 1x 100W RMS) or something similar (as easy as can be in everyday use). That give as three way active with DSP. A few problem with passive crossover will gone. For practical reasons woofer box should be no more than 120 dm3 (maybe a bit more).
So... do you think that should be ok to match BMS 12C382 and Dayton RSS460HO-4 crossed as low as can be (130Hz?)?
Dayton RSS460.jpg

Dayton RSS460HO-4 18"

BMS 382.jpg

BMS 12C382
 
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#14
Hmm, the BMS's upper mass corner is around ~2*52/0.3 = ~347 Hz, so for sealed, personally wouldn't normally go below ~347*0.707 = ~245/250 Hz based on published specs, which is still well within the RSS's 'sweet spot', though beyond the ~211 Hz/1 WL max c-t-c spacing, so may need to be 'focused' like in the example if not sitting pretty far away, but I'm (very) old school, so don't rely on T/S software, (very) complex XOs to find theoretically absolute min/max scenarios for multi-way systems.
 
#15
There is a Dayton DSS390HF maybe this will be sweet spot for me 🙂 It is 15 inch woofer, but F3 in sealed box is 35Hz (26Hz with -6dB) - less correction needed (if any). Compared to Dayton RSS460HO-4 18" which F3 in sealed box is 42Hz (32Hz with -6dB). DSS90HF need bigger box but still acceptable 110-120 L. Mms is 300g vs 500g in RSS460HO-4 18".
D390HF.jpg

Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Subwoofer
 
#16
Yotomeczek said:
There is a Dayton DSS390HF maybe this will be sweet spot for me 🙂 It is 15 inch woofer, but F3 in sealed box is 35Hz (26Hz with -6dB) - less correction needed (if any). Compared to Dayton RSS460HO-4 18" which F3 in sealed box is 42Hz (32Hz with -6dB). DSS90HF need bigger box but still acceptable 110-120 L. Mms is 300g vs 500g in RSS460HO-4 18".
View attachment 1013944
Dayton Audio RSS390HF-4
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Subwoofer
Click to expand...
Agree, better sealed performance makes it simpler.
 
#17
Yotomeczek said:
maybe this will be sweet spot for me 🙂
Click to expand...

As presented, disagree since down low is max displacement, room dominated, though to meet the needs of the app; the more important much lower Fhm to allow the desired low XO point, inductance to ensure plenty of excess high SQ HF combined with a significantly lower thermal power compression potential plus a closer c-t-c spacing makes it a 'no brainer' for me if the lower peak SPL is still high enough (without clipping!) for your widest BW transient peaks recordings. 😉
 
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