This is intended as a discussion thread and I post this out of curiosity and to try and understand what is behind the lack of diversity seen in the mainstream offerings from the major brands out there, especially in the low frequency range, below ~100Hz in outdoor applications.
Put simply - Why is the wast majority of the low frequency designs offered bass reflex?
Let's look at this from a couple of different angles by listing all the attributes in falling order from most important to least important from a customer (paying listener) point of view, as it should be.
1. Sound quality (experience)
2. Everything else (customer does not care)
So, judging be the wast majority of offerings for the sub ~100Hz range out there the bass reflex solution is the clearly the ultimate answer to the customers needs and wants, providing the best customer experience.
Is this true, or has other attributes in the "everything else" category become more important? and if so what are these attributes?
Logistics, economics, noise pollution legislation, time conservation, convenience?
Regard this a serious inquiry from a interested person with no financial attachments to the industry, I'm simply a small scale DIY'er and audio enthusiast, that's all, just so you know who is writing this.
If you think I'm wrong in my statement concerning the lack of diversity or what the customer cares about that's perfectly fine and please share your thoughts, I may very well be wrong, but at this moment I don't think I am.
Put simply - Why is the wast majority of the low frequency designs offered bass reflex?
Let's look at this from a couple of different angles by listing all the attributes in falling order from most important to least important from a customer (paying listener) point of view, as it should be.
1. Sound quality (experience)
2. Everything else (customer does not care)
So, judging be the wast majority of offerings for the sub ~100Hz range out there the bass reflex solution is the clearly the ultimate answer to the customers needs and wants, providing the best customer experience.
Is this true, or has other attributes in the "everything else" category become more important? and if so what are these attributes?
Logistics, economics, noise pollution legislation, time conservation, convenience?
Regard this a serious inquiry from a interested person with no financial attachments to the industry, I'm simply a small scale DIY'er and audio enthusiast, that's all, just so you know who is writing this.
If you think I'm wrong in my statement concerning the lack of diversity or what the customer cares about that's perfectly fine and please share your thoughts, I may very well be wrong, but at this moment I don't think I am.
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By and large, most PA subwoofers are indeed reflex designs. Why?
I can think of a few reasons:
- Good compromise between size and output. Sure, I can get 120dB@40Hz from a 8" driver in a big folded horn, but a decent ported 15" will get me there using a fraction of the cabinet volume, but will likely need more power to do so.
- They don't need multiples (see FLHs) to do the job.
- Reasonably easy to get right in terms of design etc
- The upper end of the passband is generally smooth and easy to use
- They're a known quantity in the PA world. If the management of an A-list artist contacted me and I said "yeah, I've got these custom 8th order bandpass subwoofers which very few people have actually heard in person", they're unlikely to want to go ahead and pay lots of money for something unknown to them. I might get the opportunity to demo those cabinets, but they're more likely to go with the provider who has a PA system that's well-known and the mixing engineer etc is already familiar with.
Finally,
- They're actually pretty good.
Chris
I can think of a few reasons:
- Good compromise between size and output. Sure, I can get 120dB@40Hz from a 8" driver in a big folded horn, but a decent ported 15" will get me there using a fraction of the cabinet volume, but will likely need more power to do so.
- They don't need multiples (see FLHs) to do the job.
- Reasonably easy to get right in terms of design etc
- The upper end of the passband is generally smooth and easy to use
- They're a known quantity in the PA world. If the management of an A-list artist contacted me and I said "yeah, I've got these custom 8th order bandpass subwoofers which very few people have actually heard in person", they're unlikely to want to go ahead and pay lots of money for something unknown to them. I might get the opportunity to demo those cabinets, but they're more likely to go with the provider who has a PA system that's well-known and the mixing engineer etc is already familiar with.
Finally,
- They're actually pretty good.
Chris
1. There is diversity, from the tapped and BC horns from Danley Labs to the folded horns of Function 1 a.o. It's not all bass reflex.
But A/V renting companies are very conservative and like to use proven designs that are known to be solid, reliable and can take abuse. So they stick to old proven tech as long as they can and it's profitable. Idem with the major producers of that kind of gear. They want to sell stuff, so they build what can be sold easely, not what is the best or could be the best.
I know the Belgian representer or F1 very well, i used to work for him. But it was hard to break into the market with a system like that. He started with underground gigs all over the country and small rigs to let people get used to the F1 sound and quality. Now his company is rather big, and he's a very known name here, just like the brand. But that is 15 years of keep trying and pushing this system. And with the help of a lot of dj's who asked for that system he could get his reputation. Now he's doing all kind of setups, sell or rent. Going from a local big football team who wanted a new stadium system to big nightclubs or festivals to even classical music concert halls...
But A/V renting companies are very conservative and like to use proven designs that are known to be solid, reliable and can take abuse. So they stick to old proven tech as long as they can and it's profitable. Idem with the major producers of that kind of gear. They want to sell stuff, so they build what can be sold easely, not what is the best or could be the best.
I know the Belgian representer or F1 very well, i used to work for him. But it was hard to break into the market with a system like that. He started with underground gigs all over the country and small rigs to let people get used to the F1 sound and quality. Now his company is rather big, and he's a very known name here, just like the brand. But that is 15 years of keep trying and pushing this system. And with the help of a lot of dj's who asked for that system he could get his reputation. Now he's doing all kind of setups, sell or rent. Going from a local big football team who wanted a new stadium system to big nightclubs or festivals to even classical music concert halls...
Sound quality is not that much of a differentiating factor between cabinet styles (vented, horn, bandpass, ...) in PA applications. Subwoofers simply are low frequency sources with several properties like maximum sound output, low frequency cut-off, physical size & weight and of course the purchase price. The former two are requirements, while the latter determine how much it will cost to use the system.
Somewhat empirical: Hoffman's law dictates that there is an upper limit in the combination of cabinet size, low frequency cut-off and efficiency. If the emphasis is on reasonably small cabinets, nothing beats a vented box by a large margin. Therefore there is no reason to use something else.
Note that if the emphasis shifts towards efficiency, tapped horns, vented-horn hybrids, can be a better choice.
Noise pollution can be limited by using cabinets that offer directivity on their own or by using arrays of multiple cabinets with some kind of signal processing. Only large horns offer significant directivity on their own, so all other cabinet styles are similar on this aspect.
Somewhat empirical: Hoffman's law dictates that there is an upper limit in the combination of cabinet size, low frequency cut-off and efficiency. If the emphasis is on reasonably small cabinets, nothing beats a vented box by a large margin. Therefore there is no reason to use something else.
Note that if the emphasis shifts towards efficiency, tapped horns, vented-horn hybrids, can be a better choice.
Noise pollution can be limited by using cabinets that offer directivity on their own or by using arrays of multiple cabinets with some kind of signal processing. Only large horns offer significant directivity on their own, so all other cabinet styles are similar on this aspect.
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When I write lack of diversity I do so assuming that per units sold or on hire the bass reflex solution outnumbers other designs by factor of 100:1 if not more, I am aware of manufacturers and brands that carry alternative solutions but they are few and fairly small in comparison to the global big name players out there, I hope I wrong in this assumption but I don't think I am.
Not at all true. The ROAR designs do have a very pronounced directivity, where one single ROAR12 had a more pronounced directivity then two 18 inch driver in BR boxes spaced 3 meters apart.
+1
Bass reflex simply works.
Get to choose your size, weight, SPL, low end f3, and price point, etc
Size and weight matter...setup, teardown, transport...
Ability to array matters.
And imho, it's easier with a BR to reach lower in freq, than with any other type.
I don't get the point of that comparison.
Why not one vs one? And measured outdoors...?
The popularity of bass reflex in rental inventory comes down to it's superior flexibility and scalability, it works in quantities of 1 to 100 so the same box can be used for anything from a tiny DIY party to an outdoor concert, and if you need to build a cardioid array that's no problem either just stack and delay as necessary. They pack well into trucks, singles are relatively easy to move, and they can produce quite a lot of output with current high capacity drivers and high powered class D amplifiers. The bass reflex sub is a great swiss army knife.
Martinsson,
If we look back to the "old days" of sound reinforcement hire, the use of bass horns was pretty high.
For instance, in the mid to late 1970's in the upper midwestern United States, bass horns outnumbered bass reflex in the larger hire companies by a fairly good margin, in 1979 all four of the "major player" sound companies in Minneapolis each used horn loaded bass and low mids in their main systems.
Martin's bass horn systems were very popular in the UK and Europe during that time too.
As transportation and storage cost increased dramatically and very suddenly after that time due to petrochemical "shortage" and huge inflation with high interest rates, while increased amplifier and speaker power handling dropped in price per dollar, the cost advantage of a more efficient (but larger) system vanished in the course of a few years.
Touring artists using different systems tended to gravitate towards uniformity, and that uniformity had become bass-reflex in a very short time.
The increased adoption of line arrays starting in the early 1990s, coupled with the proliferation of video in concert settings made any concession that might block sight lines less viable to producers, reducing demand for anything other than BR even further.
Hire companies make money by providing what the customer wants, and for the last 30 years, most have wanted BR. I don't see that changing much for the majority of purchases.
Art
So if I am to sum this up, at lest so far, I read it like this.
The reasons why bass reflex is the clearly dominating design principle amongst professional manufacturers/brands since the last 20 years are that it is...
Flexible. (multipurpose -> economics)
Scalable. (no need for application specific designs -> economics)
Familiar. (you know what to expect -> convenience/economics)
Compact. (for it's output and range, logistics -> economics)
Light. (for it's output and range, logistics -> economics)
Would you agree that this is correct or have I left something out?
The reasons why bass reflex is the clearly dominating design principle amongst professional manufacturers/brands since the last 20 years are that it is...
Flexible. (multipurpose -> economics)
Scalable. (no need for application specific designs -> economics)
Familiar. (you know what to expect -> convenience/economics)
Compact. (for it's output and range, logistics -> economics)
Light. (for it's output and range, logistics -> economics)
Would you agree that this is correct or have I left something out?
I believe that many people are unqualified to use a modern well designed horn system or high order QW bandpass with planar wave front resonators.
A stack of ROAR18s or Paraflex subs not properly processed and/or used with care would probably make the audience run and take cover.
Very few people have experienced the hard tactile and very physical impact of such designs with modern high power density drivers like the B&C 18IPAL or Powersoft M-Force.
Bass reflex tends to make everything sound even, soft and mediocre. Its is very predictable in its blandness. Because of the low resolution and lack of impact it will effectively filter and veil all the mistakes of the sound technician.
A stack of ROAR18s or Paraflex subs not properly processed and/or used with care would probably make the audience run and take cover.
Very few people have experienced the hard tactile and very physical impact of such designs with modern high power density drivers like the B&C 18IPAL or Powersoft M-Force.
Bass reflex tends to make everything sound even, soft and mediocre. Its is very predictable in its blandness. Because of the low resolution and lack of impact it will effectively filter and veil all the mistakes of the sound technician.
Au contraire, Circlomanen 🙂
I don't think it is hard to gain the experience or qualifications to process any kind of sub deployment properly. Horn loaded, paraflex, BR, whatever...
In fact, i'd say subs are the easiest part of the audio spectrum to process correctly.
Imo, placements and timing decisions require greater expertise than processing skills.
I've heard and felt the hard tactile and physical impact you describe (nice description btw 🙂),
from both excellent horn-loaded and bass-reflex sub designs....it's an awesome experience, one that i truly enjoy.
I-Pal or M-force may be in my future, but really only for logistics i think.
Because, if you think BR subs are necessarily low resolution and without impact,
well, my call is that it seems like there's something you haven't heard yet 😉
I don't think it is hard to gain the experience or qualifications to process any kind of sub deployment properly. Horn loaded, paraflex, BR, whatever...
In fact, i'd say subs are the easiest part of the audio spectrum to process correctly.
Imo, placements and timing decisions require greater expertise than processing skills.
I've heard and felt the hard tactile and physical impact you describe (nice description btw 🙂),
from both excellent horn-loaded and bass-reflex sub designs....it's an awesome experience, one that i truly enjoy.
I-Pal or M-force may be in my future, but really only for logistics i think.
Because, if you think BR subs are necessarily low resolution and without impact,
well, my call is that it seems like there's something you haven't heard yet 😉
Can't forget this one:
Popular. (nothing succeeds like success)
By the early 1990s, the quote changed from "Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM" to "Nobody ever got fired for choosing bass reflex..."
Art
Bass reflex is the most common offering in the <~100Hz range for professional applications because it is:
Flexible. (multipurpose -> economics)
Scalable. (no need for application specific designs -> economics)
Familiar. (you know what to expect -> convenience/economics)
Compact. (for it's output and range, logistics -> economics)
Light. (for it's output and tuning, logistics -> economics)
Popular. (nothing succeeds like success -> convinience/economics)
Simple. (easy to get right, cheap to build -> economics)
I believe this sums it up pretty well don't you?
So where do stand on the balance between sound quality (end customer metric) and everything else (business metric), these are my definitions, and they are very simplified/broken down.
Bassreflex is now the industry standard (218), but how did this happen? Did the industry shift almost exclusivly to bass reflex because that is what the end customer wanted since it provides the best experience, or was it economics?
Flexible. (multipurpose -> economics)
Scalable. (no need for application specific designs -> economics)
Familiar. (you know what to expect -> convenience/economics)
Compact. (for it's output and range, logistics -> economics)
Light. (for it's output and tuning, logistics -> economics)
Popular. (nothing succeeds like success -> convinience/economics)
Simple. (easy to get right, cheap to build -> economics)
I believe this sums it up pretty well don't you?
So where do stand on the balance between sound quality (end customer metric) and everything else (business metric), these are my definitions, and they are very simplified/broken down.
Bassreflex is now the industry standard (218), but how did this happen? Did the industry shift almost exclusivly to bass reflex because that is what the end customer wanted since it provides the best experience, or was it economics?
It was for sure economics for Altec, ultimately to the point of being 'penny wise and pound foolish'.
GM
GM
I think I can now see and understand a bit better why there is a lack of diversity in the industry in this category, and I assume the same list to a large extent can be applied to also explain the linearray takeover.
And this I believe is the reason why the industry has become so uniform, lacking in diversity and frankly boring, with far to few and by market share very small exceptions to the point where broadly speaking everybody does the same things for the same reasons, so where is the healthy competition and brand unique aspects? I personally regard it as a sort of zombification, and I think you can hear it.
I may be wrong, but I don't think I am, why would we otherwise do what we do here, think about it, the DIY community is starting to look like the place where the most progressive attempts are now made, save for the few previously mentioned exceptions, that in it self says a lot, and that's why I like it here.
Sorry for the sharp-ish tone, no offence intended to anyone, it's just a bit of frustration coming out that is all.
And this I believe is the reason why the industry has become so uniform, lacking in diversity and frankly boring, with far to few and by market share very small exceptions to the point where broadly speaking everybody does the same things for the same reasons, so where is the healthy competition and brand unique aspects? I personally regard it as a sort of zombification, and I think you can hear it.
I may be wrong, but I don't think I am, why would we otherwise do what we do here, think about it, the DIY community is starting to look like the place where the most progressive attempts are now made, save for the few previously mentioned exceptions, that in it self says a lot, and that's why I like it here.
Sorry for the sharp-ish tone, no offence intended to anyone, it's just a bit of frustration coming out that is all.
+1
The basic problem is that there are no good off-the-shelf means of reproducing low bass or at least in any way comparable to the rest of the tone compass. And I even include motional feedback in that dour assessment.
Nobody has a low sub speaker except for a driver with resonance inside the passband. So every speaker has to dance around that dumb obstacle (although motional feedback takes a shot at fixing it).
When you DIY and you know your priorities, you have some choices. If sound quality matters most, you can make a real large sealed box. You can make a horn (if you build your own house). You can use motional feedback (if electronically sophisticated). Or a giant gas-filled electrostatic.
B.
The basic problem is that there are no good off-the-shelf means of reproducing low bass or at least in any way comparable to the rest of the tone compass. And I even include motional feedback in that dour assessment.
Nobody has a low sub speaker except for a driver with resonance inside the passband. So every speaker has to dance around that dumb obstacle (although motional feedback takes a shot at fixing it).
When you DIY and you know your priorities, you have some choices. If sound quality matters most, you can make a real large sealed box. You can make a horn (if you build your own house). You can use motional feedback (if electronically sophisticated). Or a giant gas-filled electrostatic.
B.
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The professional market has spoken, those that provide for it have listened. There are a lot more providers now competing for that limited market than 50 years ago, yet Clair Global still has the largest percentage of that market, having bought out most of their competition. As of September 2020, Clair also has the largest Federal Reserve "Main Street" loan at $71 million.
Automobiles providers almost all use four wheels on their cars, pro-providers still (mostly) use bass reflex.
You can still find unique aspects to those competing against Clair's own boxes, like auto manufacturers, speaker providers like Adamson, DBaudiotechnik, EAW, EV, JBL, L-Acoustics, Nexo, Meyer, Martin etc., all have slightly different stuff under the hood.
Art