Specifications:
Battery powered
Light weight
No wires
No active crossover needed.
High powered
Automatic dynamic room EQ
No monitors required
Configurable selectable presets for each song.
Indestructible drivers
Auto mixing and instant live mastering and recording.
Woofers no bigger than 8".
No stage amps. Guitar players can call up their effects with a virtual pedal board.
PA can be programmed to run the lights.
Drums instantly processed so even the worst sounding drums can sound acceptable. The drum mics can be switched to triggers.
The question is, with today's technology how much of this is possible?
What's your dream PA?
Battery powered
Light weight
No wires
No active crossover needed.
High powered
Automatic dynamic room EQ
No monitors required
Configurable selectable presets for each song.
Indestructible drivers
Auto mixing and instant live mastering and recording.
Woofers no bigger than 8".
No stage amps. Guitar players can call up their effects with a virtual pedal board.
PA can be programmed to run the lights.
Drums instantly processed so even the worst sounding drums can sound acceptable. The drum mics can be switched to triggers.
The question is, with today's technology how much of this is possible?
What's your dream PA?
Battery powered Possible but unnecsesary, and the cost makes it impractical for proper PA applications
Light weight. It's done already, see modern powered speakers.
No wires. possible but needless complication and expense, wireless audio that is almost as good as an XLR cable costs thousands per link.
No active crossover needed. It's done already, see modern powered speakers
High powered. It's done already, see modern powered speakers
Automatic dynamic room EQ. Auto room EQ is done already but it doesn't work as well as you might think
No monitors required. Done already.. see in ear monitors.
Configurable selectable presets for each song. Done already, see digital mixers?
Indestructible drivers. It's done already, see modern powered speakers.
Auto mixing and instant live mastering and recording. Automixing is done already but you won't like it for a band, see Digital mixers. Mastering and recording has nothing to do with a PA system
Woofers no bigger than 8". Where's the fun in that. I love big speakers😀
No stage amps. Guitar players can call up their effects with a virtual pedal board. Done already, would a phone app suffice? See Digital mixers
PA can be programmed to run the lights. Done already sorta.. But what is the Lampie gonna do?
Drums instantly processed so even the worst sounding drums can sound acceptable. The drum mics can be switched to triggers. I'm a firm believer that an artist gets to suck out loud for all to hear if they couldn't be bothered putting some effort into their craft, otherwise see electronic drums.
Unfortunately my dream system would actually be several systems because no 1 system is perfect for every room. But as long as I have been at this modern powered speakers have proven to be the best solution yet.
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That´s a CRAPPY PA
A toy, not usable even in a bedroom.
SERIOUS?
Do you have any idea of what PA means and what are they used for?
You sound like:
😱
Battery powered Possible but unnecsesary, and the cost makes it impractical for proper PA applications
Light weight. It's done already, see modern powered speakers.
Make them even lighter by using 8" speakers.
No wires. possible but needless complication and expense, wireless audio that is almost as good as an XLR cable costs thousands per link.
Running wires is a pain in the butt. Have you priced high quality XLR cables? The connectors wear out the more plug and unplug them. Mic cables, speaker cables are heavy. 12 gauge wire is heavy and long runs of speaker wire and extension cords is time consuming and messy. Also you get voltage drops over long runs and that causes ground loops.
No active crossover needed. It's done already, see modern powered speakers
Many bands still use power amps and speaker configuration that don't come as self powered. Band pass boxes don't come powered. The only powered subs I've seen are front facing vented boxes.
High powered. It's done already, see modern powered speakers
I'm talking 5000 watt amps and up.
Automatic dynamic room EQ. Auto room EQ is done already but it doesn't work as well as you might think
Who's doing it and what is their technology? I can think of ways to automatically EQ a room using a spectrum analyzer plug in and a plug in EQ and a pink noise generator. It's old technology that works well. I can be automated. It makes sound checks go much faster. Even during the dinosaur days they worked great.
No monitors required. Done already.. see in ear monitors.
Ear monitors are monitors. The Grateful Dead with their Wall of Sound back in the 70's didn't use monitors. In ear monitors are ear buds and they look awful and are subject to breakage. The are uncomfortable for some people and they block some audience feedback. If you have dancer/singers on stage they can fall out. If you want to shout something to band member their ears are plugged.
Configurable selectable presets for each song. Done already, see digital mixers?
A lot of PA aren't and the one mixer I'm most aware of for small venue bands is Presonus Studio Live and it's unreliable and poorly built.
Indestructible drivers. It's done already, see modern powered speakers.
Right!There are no indestructible speakers as of 12/21/2020. Speakers wear out, voice coils burn out, cones get fatigues. There are physics involved. If the cone gets stretched from use and gravity and getting bumped around or are subject to temperature changes, or changed in humidity bad things happen such as dry rot and thermal expansion and contraction. See car audio.
Auto mixing and instant live mastering and recording. Automixing is done already but you won't like it for a band, see Digital mixers. Mastering and recording has nothing to do with a PA system
Wrong! Mixing is mixing. Mixing live is different that studio but in each case there is a mix bus where the mastering is done. I've mixed live sound and I mix in the studio. Mastering is treatment that to done in the mix buss or on the final mix by adding what the mastering engineer deems necessary. Today, Dolby has algorithms that can automatically masters a finished track.
Master your tracks directly on SoundCloud, powered by Dolby - Dolby (news)
This could be put in a mixer.
Woofers no bigger than 8". Where's the fun in that. I love big speakers😀
Small woofers are faster and lighter.
No stage amps. Guitar players can call up their effects with a virtual pedal board. Done already, would a phone app suffice? See Digital mixers
Nope. Have you ever played live? There are digital amps that model classic amps and classic cabs. Most guitarists are control freaks with their pain in *** pedal boards. If their "virtual pedal board" looked pretty and they knew they we calling up amp models and effects directly from the board and someone were to blindfold them and A-B their rig with a virtual rig for them, they would grudgingly leave their amp and pedal board home. The amp and effects sims would have to be good. There are some crappy amp sims out there. A virtual pedal board that can call up effects programmed by the guitar player will make him happy and he will have a better idea to what the audience is hearing. Guitar player come out of the mix a lot because of their pedals.
The band could have a better look and more freedom of movement with no amps or cords.
PA can be programmed to run the lights. Done already sorta.. But what is the Lampie gonna do?
There are computer run programmable controllers that do a good job but if the can react to the music exactly even if the band has a temp change.
Drums instantly processed so even the worst sounding drums can sound acceptable. The drum mics can be switched to triggers. I'm a firm believer that an artist gets to suck out loud for all to hear if they couldn't be bothered putting some effort into their craft, otherwise see electronic drums.
I hear ya but the audience deserves better. While a drummer is a musician's best friend,😀 they are often the weakest link in the band. For every Kenny Aronoff the are 100 hacks who can sorta drum.
Unfortunately my dream system would actually be several systems because no 1 system is perfect for every room. But as long as I have been at this modern powered speakers have proven to be the best solution yet.
I've hear powered speakers in several clubs and what came out of the tops sounded fine but in large rooms enclosures with front facing 15" didn't cut the muster. Speakers are generally the issue when it comes to rooms and room size. Low frequencies are hard to control. Mixing long and short throw speaker at least gives you some options for more control. Decent sized speakers for the mids and highs have in my experience been less troublesome. Sometimes adjusting crossover points helps but having various speaker types for low end can help when combined with a tuneable crossover. My dream system would have those problems solved either electronically with software or mechanically with drivers and cabinets.
I've always played through 15"s on stage and in a couple of clubs there would be dead notes and wolf notes from my bass which is could never adjust out. Other rigs with 10's or 8's didn't have that issue. My next bass guitar rig will probably have 2 or 4 10's. I'd like to try 8's or 10's as the woofers in the subs for PA applications.
one doesn't need to go through the entire list.... the first two are a contradiction in terms.(or maybe Elon Musk has some tech he hasn't shared)
Exactly. Machines are more precise than human. There is an art to mixing but a lot of guys suck at it. I've run sound from stage while playing. It was not fun. a smart mixer that can mix the instrument and the vocals would be great.
It's become a matter of economics. Clubs are smaller, people drink less, clubs have DJs, wedding receptions mostly have DJs and now with COVID-19 the whole scene is shut down what's left of it.
I'm an old fart who misses the days when there was live music and lots of places to play. It was a fun time and one could make a meager living or supplement his income. Some guys made a decent living. It was a party. Sex and drugs and Rock & Roll. 😎
In no particular order:
- 8" speakers aren't suitable for LF reinforcement at concert levels. Bass requires large volumes of air to be shifted. How many 8"s will it take to match an 18SW115?
- Which 8" speakers are you thinking of, which can handle 5000w? Further, where are you planning on plugging in these 5000w amplifiers?
- A touring-grade wireless system will cost in the region of £2k per channel. How does that stack up against an XLR cable?
The best wireless in the world is almost as good as a cable - anything that can be wired should be.
- There are some Mackie subs which are both bandpass and active. One doesn't rule out the other.
- You don't seem to have much experience with modern IEM systems. There should be audience mics, and mics on-stage routed only to the band's IEMs so they can talk to each other without it going out of the FOH system.
- Voltage drops do not cause ground loops. Ever.
- Small woofers aren't faster than big woofers. 50Hz is 50Hz, and if anything, the larger cone can move slower and produce the same SPL as a small cone performing large excursions. Further, larger woofers tend to have larger motors and can therefore apply the force required to accelerate a large cone quickly.
- There's more processing than you might think in the average powered speaker. From the testing I've done, even fairly cheap stuff has peak/RMS/excursion limiting, which will protect the drivers from pretty much every abuse (in terms of input signals) possible. Dropping the cabinets is another matter.
- Dead/loud notes are nothing to do with the size of the cones, and everything to do with room acoustics. Try this: Set up a speaker and play a 60Hz tone though it at a comfortable level. Walk around the room, and see if you can find a completely dead spot. Next, change to 70Hz and find a dead spot. Sometimes they'll be in the same location, but often different frequencies will have nulls in different places.
Unless you're outdoors and away from boundries (ie, playing in the middle of a field), there will always be some notes louder and quieter than others.
Careful positioning of you and your speaker can help to optimise what you hear, but it's very difficult to eliminate the effect entirely.
A cardioid cabinet from Fulcrum Acoustics might be worth a try, though, since that will eliminate the back-wall reflection.
Overall, it seems like you've experienced some crappy engineers and equipment, and have extrapolated to the idea that the entire Pro Audio world is doing everything wrong.
Chris
- 8" speakers aren't suitable for LF reinforcement at concert levels. Bass requires large volumes of air to be shifted. How many 8"s will it take to match an 18SW115?
- Which 8" speakers are you thinking of, which can handle 5000w? Further, where are you planning on plugging in these 5000w amplifiers?
- A touring-grade wireless system will cost in the region of £2k per channel. How does that stack up against an XLR cable?
The best wireless in the world is almost as good as a cable - anything that can be wired should be.
- There are some Mackie subs which are both bandpass and active. One doesn't rule out the other.
- You don't seem to have much experience with modern IEM systems. There should be audience mics, and mics on-stage routed only to the band's IEMs so they can talk to each other without it going out of the FOH system.
- Voltage drops do not cause ground loops. Ever.
- Small woofers aren't faster than big woofers. 50Hz is 50Hz, and if anything, the larger cone can move slower and produce the same SPL as a small cone performing large excursions. Further, larger woofers tend to have larger motors and can therefore apply the force required to accelerate a large cone quickly.
- There's more processing than you might think in the average powered speaker. From the testing I've done, even fairly cheap stuff has peak/RMS/excursion limiting, which will protect the drivers from pretty much every abuse (in terms of input signals) possible. Dropping the cabinets is another matter.
- Dead/loud notes are nothing to do with the size of the cones, and everything to do with room acoustics. Try this: Set up a speaker and play a 60Hz tone though it at a comfortable level. Walk around the room, and see if you can find a completely dead spot. Next, change to 70Hz and find a dead spot. Sometimes they'll be in the same location, but often different frequencies will have nulls in different places.
Unless you're outdoors and away from boundries (ie, playing in the middle of a field), there will always be some notes louder and quieter than others.
Careful positioning of you and your speaker can help to optimise what you hear, but it's very difficult to eliminate the effect entirely.
A cardioid cabinet from Fulcrum Acoustics might be worth a try, though, since that will eliminate the back-wall reflection.
Overall, it seems like you've experienced some crappy engineers and equipment, and have extrapolated to the idea that the entire Pro Audio world is doing everything wrong.
Chris
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"a large cone can move "less" and produce the same SPL" i think is what you meant,no? otherwise it's still still a speed conflation.
BTW sport I've played through maybe 100 different sound systems. I've run sound on systems that required tapping 220 volts because they drew so much current. One band I played with used 6 power power amps. I used to set it up on gigs and run the sound check.
If you would like to troll me let me know and I'll have a friend of mine start a troll thread on his blog just for you. He doesn't censor. We enjoy studying the growing US Arschloch Quotient. We'll be nice but you can say whatever pops in your head. He won't ban you. You won't have to mince words. Sound like fun?
As to batteries, there are probably certain devices you use regularly that generally contain C or D cells. This is not what this thread is about.
https://cowichanautorepair.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/HY-IMG_5649.jpg
Were talking about something like this that would power a Prius. They are not like the kind used for prostate massage devices. Does that clear thing up for you sport?
Yep, true. With a fixed frequency, though, increased peak displacement requires increased velocity.
Chris
Call me when you're running 415V 125A 3-phase service with 20x channels of Macrotech running the FOH system, and another 16x channels running wedges.
... Or when you're configuring systems with Armonia+/Lake DSP.
... Or when you're running shows with a dedicated RF engineer whose sole job is to make sure all the wireless gear works together.
I could go on, if you like, but the stuff you're talking about isn't particularly impressive, and the way you're conducting yourself won't make you any friends.
Chris
PS - My dream PA would be a pair of speakers the size of my Sony XB12 (which sounds pretty good FWIW), but is capable of 150dB 20Hz-20kHz at no more than 1% THD, with user-selectable directivity which can vary by frequency. Pop one of those at each end of the truss, and then go and find catering while the lampies finish messing about.
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ok so what, a distribution feed tie in for power is commonplace in concert sound.
but in recent times with class D amps that's changing...
My dream PA is the one that come with a free, gifted (but not too difficult to work with) sound engineer.
Oh, and half a dozen big, very visible, buttons that do nothing as placebo to appease the musicians.
I would also like a pony with that.
Oh, and half a dozen big, very visible, buttons that do nothing as placebo to appease the musicians.
I would also like a pony with that.
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