Anyone have any experience with the sound of each capacitor? I already use Nichicon PW for everything that isn't coupling related.
Do you know how they work? Any properly sized coupling cap will not "have a sound". They will be inaudible. But if you want to waste money go buy the audiophool grade.
I ask, if you can barely detect 1% thd in a amplifier, how are you going to hear the difference in a ecap that might have 0.001% thd?
Nichicon makes lots of quality parts, I like blue and green but black is good too. If I had to choose,, UKL low leakage 105c for signal, UPW for supplies
Nichicon makes lots of quality parts, I like blue and green but black is good too. If I had to choose,, UKL low leakage 105c for signal, UPW for supplies
Last edited:
It some times pisses me when people call other audiofool rather knowing that Caps do effect sound. I get that some random old dude claiming that cables make difference.
Different caps have different property on order of distortion a signal have. Elna Silmic for example slightly bump the 2nd order harmonic distortion so people describe it as tube like warm and smooth. Nichicon Muse ES/FG for example sounds very dynamic in sound stage rather Panasonic FC/SU because these capacitors start irregular wave in very low order above 35Khz range. If you still insist to use these caps , simple solution is bypass with 0.1uf Film to archive similar effect to audio grade caps.
Do you think legendary designer like Nelson Pass who recommends and uses Elna Silmic II are fool?
Your equipment cannot measure doesn't mean it doesn't make difference.
Nichicon ES pushed Audio Precision analyzer to its limit.
Nichicon Muse ES bipolar caps measured: <-120dB THD, <-140dB IMD
Problem with todays designer are that they want to archive clean as wire distortion which makes zero sense. Every most high end headphones and speaker are above 1% THD.
Psychoacoustics is much more complex than just lower distortion which is far easier to archive. Natural sound is one that has dominant 2nd order Harmonics followed by decreasing 3rd order harmonic which is seen in Tube amps, Does tubes measure good? No Does Tubes sounds good ? Yes they do.
Even Power supply caps makes difference , for example famous warm sound of Sansui amps and receiver back in 70s was caused by Elna Low ESR PSU caps in them. Popularly known as Sansui sound.
If you ask for my preference , use Nichicon UES for bipolar duty above 2.2uf (for 2.2uf and below use Film cap).
For everything else choose Elna Silmic II or Nichicon Muse KZ.
Elna Silmic requires 40 to 100hrs of burn in to sound good else they sound muddy so use Muse KZ if you cannot wait.
Yes, there're people who can't hear certain things, and think their disabilities should democratically be applied to everybody else 🙂
Then again, electrolytic coupling cap can be designed out completely: JFet at the input, DC servo at the output will do the trick.
Then again, electrolytic coupling cap can be designed out completely: JFet at the input, DC servo at the output will do the trick.
Many of these statements I can not agree with because I believe that people making these claims are not able to discern the differences in a blind test. The real proof is doing these blind tests so that you are not biased. You might be surprised at the results. This is DIY so each can make imo false claims and mislead others with no consequence.
So youve done proper blind testing?
It pisses me off when people who are clueless wen it comes to electronics spread audiophool BS. Like Sansui sound is from there PS caps, LOL. Even spreading the burn in myth. So I guess you dont know how a coupling cap works, or any other electronic part. Your opinions have no proof. Read Nelson Pass again and try to understand it.
For the record, I know caps do make a difference depending on where there used, like speaker xovers, but there are many applications in audio where any cap that has the right capacitance will be inaudible.
And you should tell NASA, LIGO, the military, etc about burn in, they could use a good laugh right now.
It's always a thing, with all those people who actually have not the necessary experience about the discussion here and still they keep spending so much energy declaring that there is not such thing as significantly different sounding capacitors (resistors, cables, etc. etc.). To me they just manage to humiliate themselves doing that in a forum, where many people with a certain level of experience KNOW otherwise.
Apart from me, a friend with experienced ear and brain, who is very familiar with the sound of my system, without warning and without error, realizes and describes the differences when I have changed a component, especially the capacitors and resistors in the signal path, the feedback and the PSU. And this happens even when he has to visit me for several days. This is as blind as a test can be.
Being a film cap animal and having mixed results in the past with the Silmics, I recently gave Muses a try and I am very exited about how good the UES perform in coupling and the UFG and UKZ in both coupling and decoupling. To my surprise, they outperform all low to mid cost MKPs in terms of resolution, soundstage and timbre, being much cheaper and smaller in size at the same time. The Muses have a more lively sound where Silmics are more calm and with more meat in the bass region (not always a good thing). In comparison with a standard electrolytic they all give significant sonic benefits but which is more suitable depends on the character of the device and the direction you need it to go. Unfortunately, to my experience, there is no safe way to bypass testing and tasting.
Nichicon KL or FG or Elna Silmic for coupling capacitors? 😀😉
They are all very good. You can tell the difference between them and it is the best way to determine the specific sound, if it exists.
Buy one of each model and get to work.
They are all very good. You can tell the difference between them and it is the best way to determine the specific sound, if it exists.
Buy one of each model and get to work.
People chasing every diminishing returns which they cant hear or imagine they can hear.
I have been building amps for 40 years with bog standard electrolytics with no problems.
For me getting it correct at the PS is most important. This means from trafo, bridge & main caps first.
Trying to decipher what is being said above. You hear differences between caps but your ears draw the line just before silver wire? Is that it? Seems a bit selective and prejudicial. And also a bit amusing 😎
I agree with you on the Nichicon Muse UES caps for non-polar in direct signal path applications. They sound the most like a good MKP and in some cases actually a little more inert, in that they don't impart any character to speak of their own into the audio chain. For anything polarized in the signal path, I use a non-polar Muze UES cap instead when I can. I would even go so far to say that most coupling transformers don't sound as clean as the Muze UES caps. Things change once you get into the higher end Lundahl and Sowter transformers. In my TDA1541 equipped CDP I use passive IV behind the DAC that consists of a Jensen transformer. I also tried Nichicon Mize UES coupled with the good old NE5532 and honestly think it sounds very close to the Jensen transformer despite an active stage being in the signal path. I have a lot of respect for the Muse UES caps and having tried the Silmic IIs, the Muse UES still beats them by a long shot in midrange resolution and clarity, but also in extreme low level detail as well as better low end control. The Silmic IIs sound plastic and synthetic in comparison, even after a long break in period.
Caps that pass signals from symmetrical PS fed stages shouldn't be polarized due to the signal constantly changing polarity, so a non polar or film cap is more appropriate for those situations. The only time you can get away with a polarized cap is by keeping the voltage drop across the cap very low. Once you exceed 10-20 mV, you get those signature distortion artifacts that smear the soundstage to the point of affecting phase response down low. The distortion is audible on decent gear and when you think about how many dozens of caps are in the signal path of typical audio gear, you end up with a stack affect. Changing out a bunch of coupling caps on average gear can really wake it up.
Hi Profiguy,
We sort of have similar experiences as I muck lots with caps & resistors on my dac & amps. Yes I've been wondering why in earth so many ppl likes the Silmic ll which I find not interesting especially in the highs so unnatural & shut in. Japanese market Silmic ll fares better.
Re Muse Ues I find better success on my amps then dac overall they're pretty good but looses out in terms of dynamics to KZ but KZ has a sizzle top which has to be tamed using a bypass of another cap to make it sound natural. If your gamed though Ues is bipolar it will sound different if you connect the positive leg to ground. Yes there still is a positive & neg leg. Just use a DVM to measure & you'll see it.
Cheers
We sort of have similar experiences as I muck lots with caps & resistors on my dac & amps. Yes I've been wondering why in earth so many ppl likes the Silmic ll which I find not interesting especially in the highs so unnatural & shut in. Japanese market Silmic ll fares better.
Re Muse Ues I find better success on my amps then dac overall they're pretty good but looses out in terms of dynamics to KZ but KZ has a sizzle top which has to be tamed using a bypass of another cap to make it sound natural. If your gamed though Ues is bipolar it will sound different if you connect the positive leg to ground. Yes there still is a positive & neg leg. Just use a DVM to measure & you'll see it.
Cheers
Nichicon UES actually has a preferred polarity the way its manufactured. The negative (short) lead is closest to the outside of the cap body and favors a slight negative bias. What I'm trying to say is I connect the positive lead to the signal source in a non-polar application, which lowers THD according to my measurements. When bypassing most electrolytics in the signsl path, I use a 10:1 ratio. I also find the larger value caps exhibit better frequency balance than smaller ones and going up in voltage makes the distortion decrease. If measurements were everything, I find the Muse UES to measure almost as good as a straight wire, reaching the lower limits of my test setup. As we know, measurements don't tell the whole story and there are some unexplained things we can hear despite falling into the range of not supposed to being detectable by the human ear. The people who state you can't hear the difference of caps, resistors and other "passive" components in the signal path (or power supply) either don't have the ears for it or their gear isn't good enough.
Comparing other types of electrolytic caps, the silmic II sound congested and veiled, lacking low end in contrast to the Muse UES. I have even replaced Black Gate caps in favor of Muse UES. I'm a big fan of higher end DACs that use the TDA1541A chip, which (to me) sound the most "analog" of any DAC (even compared to R2R). This DAC is very sensitive in how the IV stage is implemented and its a good application for testing the effects of passive components in the signal path due to the fragility of the output signal from the DAC. Phono stages are also a good place for this type of component evaluation. Larger voltage swings into lower impedance loads will also expose a cap's distortiom characteristics and in these situations its better to use a good MKP ie. tube stages and bypassing PS in large amplifiers.
I know most people will say its more appropriate to use a polarized cap for single ended PS rail stage couplimg, but i find that non-polar sounds better almost every time. I sometimes put 2 polarized caps in series back to back and ground the center connection with a large value resistor. Sometimes I will connect it to both PS rails with 2 resistors. It really depends on the application, but in most cases it improves the sound. It just depends on what electrical conditions the caps favor.
For polarized electrolytics in PS I'm not as picky. The Panasonic FC and BE are really good, even compared to Nichicon KZ or Elna. I try to avoid magnetic leads when possible if the cap is in the direct signal path, but almost all electrolytics are made this way with the exception of some Nichicon and Elna. Bypassing doesn't always work and won't make a bad cap sound better. Pick your poison.
Comparing other types of electrolytic caps, the silmic II sound congested and veiled, lacking low end in contrast to the Muse UES. I have even replaced Black Gate caps in favor of Muse UES. I'm a big fan of higher end DACs that use the TDA1541A chip, which (to me) sound the most "analog" of any DAC (even compared to R2R). This DAC is very sensitive in how the IV stage is implemented and its a good application for testing the effects of passive components in the signal path due to the fragility of the output signal from the DAC. Phono stages are also a good place for this type of component evaluation. Larger voltage swings into lower impedance loads will also expose a cap's distortiom characteristics and in these situations its better to use a good MKP ie. tube stages and bypassing PS in large amplifiers.
I know most people will say its more appropriate to use a polarized cap for single ended PS rail stage couplimg, but i find that non-polar sounds better almost every time. I sometimes put 2 polarized caps in series back to back and ground the center connection with a large value resistor. Sometimes I will connect it to both PS rails with 2 resistors. It really depends on the application, but in most cases it improves the sound. It just depends on what electrical conditions the caps favor.
For polarized electrolytics in PS I'm not as picky. The Panasonic FC and BE are really good, even compared to Nichicon KZ or Elna. I try to avoid magnetic leads when possible if the cap is in the direct signal path, but almost all electrolytics are made this way with the exception of some Nichicon and Elna. Bypassing doesn't always work and won't make a bad cap sound better. Pick your poison.
Even though i use extensively nichicon muse bipolars for coupling at least because they look cool, i know nobody can really hear the difference between them and 0.1bucks chinese capacitors...Try it and see for yourself.Unless capacilors have significant dc leakage and that happens from time to time with various faked capacitors , most capacitor's distortions are way below the audibility treshold.I actuslly have a thread about that regarding a Realistic eq section based on transistors using 11 × 40 years old coupling capacitors whose distortions i couldn't tell from one single nichicon muse capacitor when i bypassed the entire eq.
Years later I found a technical review that actually measured that equipment distortions and couldn't measure anything below 0.003% thd at 5 watts ...and they also found that the entire eq section doesn't need a bypass switch that i previously put in to make the tests.Basically at the time I rewired the Monitor switches to have the eq bypassed.Now think of the fact that the eq had a ton of transistors too...not only 11 coupling capacitors.
http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/realistic-sta-2250-262.htmlhttps://www.diyaudio.com/community/...tion-on-capacitor-induced-distortions.358296/
Years later I found a technical review that actually measured that equipment distortions and couldn't measure anything below 0.003% thd at 5 watts ...and they also found that the entire eq section doesn't need a bypass switch that i previously put in to make the tests.Basically at the time I rewired the Monitor switches to have the eq bypassed.Now think of the fact that the eq had a ton of transistors too...not only 11 coupling capacitors.
http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/realistic-sta-2250-262.htmlhttps://www.diyaudio.com/community/...tion-on-capacitor-induced-distortions.358296/
Give it a test without measuring Profiguy. Positive leg of UES to the ground you'll get even better clarity but off course with it you loose a little bass. In ways you can use the UES with different orientation to gain a certain sonic that your after to create a balance. We're in the same boat, been mucking with TDA even in earlier years but the best implementation that I've experienced is Peja's AyA hence I've been tweaking it for years just to see how far I can improve the sound. Been quite an adventure.
Cheers
Cheers
I have been building amps, headphone amps and dacs for 15+ years. Starting with the little cmoy of course. My very good friend is an electrical engineer working at a nuclear power plant. I pick his brain all the time and he has been helpful in getting my power supplies dead quiet. One thing that does not compute with him at all is that capacitors have a sound. For him it is all esr, uf, size, price. He always tells me that the correct value with make the circuit work. True, but... Nichicon Muse UES is not the same thing as some cheap Rubycon or shrill Panasonic FC etc.. After having tried all the usual suspects, I now rely on 3. Nichicon Muse KZ, Nichicon Muse ES (bipolar) and Elna Silmic II. I generally mix all three into any audio circuit and there is testing required to see what should go where. On my dac for instance the whole thing is UES including the output capacitors. On the heaphone amp it is KZ, UES and some small 10uf Silmic II bypassing on the opamp because it gives it a touch of warmth. Nichicon KZ is detailed, full and sounds the way you think digital Hifi should sound. Absolutely clean, detailed and dynamic. However, that is not all one wants all the time. UES sounds the way the very best analog hifi sounds like. Smooth, full, clean detailed. Silmic II has a tube like sound, very warm and full and great sound stage but the lowest bass and highest trebble is a bit recessed. However, mix all three and you get perfection.