Hello
I‘m going to follow the masters recommendation and use the clarity cap CMR.
But, while surfing hificollective‘s range, I almost got lost. There are so many different brands and types! It made me ask myself what „exactly“ the differences are.
Sure, there are the brands and their respective characteristics (sonic, materials etc), but how can I differentiate them not just by the numbers?
What‘s the fuss about oil? EVO? Supreme? Which to prefer when?
Elliot‘s sound-au.com has great information already, but this didn’t really helped.
I wish I had found a logic in all this, which would enable me to make decisions not only by measuring the drool [emoji1782] or the price-tag...
I‘m going to follow the masters recommendation and use the clarity cap CMR.
But, while surfing hificollective‘s range, I almost got lost. There are so many different brands and types! It made me ask myself what „exactly“ the differences are.
Sure, there are the brands and their respective characteristics (sonic, materials etc), but how can I differentiate them not just by the numbers?
What‘s the fuss about oil? EVO? Supreme? Which to prefer when?
Elliot‘s sound-au.com has great information already, but this didn’t really helped.
I wish I had found a logic in all this, which would enable me to make decisions not only by measuring the drool [emoji1782] or the price-tag...
Beware, retail companies like HiFi and others are aiming to make a huge profit.
Don't be fooled by expensive, glitzy stuff that is no better performance wise than your average Nichicon or Panasonic capacitor.
Coupling capacitors must conform to the specification and a 2.2uF capacitor made by Philips is as good as a capacitor for a hundred times the price from a hyped up seller posing as a manufacturer.
If you look closely, there is little information apart from "recommendations" that are really not worth a light or a biased report from the seller. Most people will say they "sound" better, that means they need to warrant the extortionate amount spent on the items, nothing more.
V-Cap CuTF | Hifi Collective Where is the specification sheet?
Panasonic 2u2 PMF;
I rest my case.
Don't be fooled by expensive, glitzy stuff that is no better performance wise than your average Nichicon or Panasonic capacitor.
Coupling capacitors must conform to the specification and a 2.2uF capacitor made by Philips is as good as a capacitor for a hundred times the price from a hyped up seller posing as a manufacturer.
If you look closely, there is little information apart from "recommendations" that are really not worth a light or a biased report from the seller. Most people will say they "sound" better, that means they need to warrant the extortionate amount spent on the items, nothing more.
V-Cap CuTF | Hifi Collective Where is the specification sheet?
Panasonic 2u2 PMF;
I rest my case.
I see your point. I was close to it, not quite to the point of comparing a philips to a fancy boutique part.
I‘ll probably won’t have any other choice than dipping my toe into it myself (buying some and see for myself). I’m trusting Salas and Mark pretty much blindly, just can’t think of them falling into the glitz-trap.
And, well, a bit of glitz here and there can be quite sexy, too [emoji14]
Thank you, Jon, for the point!
PS you build/repair cool stuff...
Basically any capacitor that comes with marketing hype and no datasheet is a likely a con - you are buying expectation rather than performance. Their target audience is the gullible or unknowledgable.
Electronic component properties are listed as measurements in a datasheet. Look for loss-tangent, ESR, tolerance, dielectric material, ESL/self-resonant frequency and for electrolytics sometimes ripple current rating and lifetime at temperature specs are important.
Avoid anything with paper dielectric as it degrades over time and is 1920's technology! PP (polypropylene) or PS (polystyrene) dielectric is excellent for film capacitors, unless in a high temperature environment, where teflon (PTFE) or PPS is appropriate. If not in the signal path qualities are _much_ less important, frankly any old cap will do for decoupling at audio frequency if the ESR is low (!)
Any guff about using copper rather than aluminium is an immediate warning sign you are being ripped off as copper makes capacitors much more expensive than an equivalently performing standard aluminium cap for no reason (copper is much more expensive than aluminium and weight-for-weight is a far poorer conductor) - you pay for the copper as well as the exorbitant markup on manufacturing cost.
Electronic component properties are listed as measurements in a datasheet. Look for loss-tangent, ESR, tolerance, dielectric material, ESL/self-resonant frequency and for electrolytics sometimes ripple current rating and lifetime at temperature specs are important.
Avoid anything with paper dielectric as it degrades over time and is 1920's technology! PP (polypropylene) or PS (polystyrene) dielectric is excellent for film capacitors, unless in a high temperature environment, where teflon (PTFE) or PPS is appropriate. If not in the signal path qualities are _much_ less important, frankly any old cap will do for decoupling at audio frequency if the ESR is low (!)
Any guff about using copper rather than aluminium is an immediate warning sign you are being ripped off as copper makes capacitors much more expensive than an equivalently performing standard aluminium cap for no reason (copper is much more expensive than aluminium and weight-for-weight is a far poorer conductor) - you pay for the copper as well as the exorbitant markup on manufacturing cost.
myleftear:
While they may all measure similarly, I've come to believe that there may nonetheless be audible differences between capacitors with the same rating and value manufactured by different companies. Maybe it's the materials used, maybe the manner in which they're manufactured, maybe it's some other secret sauce, but I have heard differences. And I'm not alone: you might want to spend some time at the Humble HiFi website: Humble Homemade Hifi - Cap Test
Now let the derision begin!
Regards,
Scott
While they may all measure similarly, I've come to believe that there may nonetheless be audible differences between capacitors with the same rating and value manufactured by different companies. Maybe it's the materials used, maybe the manner in which they're manufactured, maybe it's some other secret sauce, but I have heard differences. And I'm not alone: you might want to spend some time at the Humble HiFi website: Humble Homemade Hifi - Cap Test
Now let the derision begin!
Regards,
Scott
The Clarity Cap CMR is about as close to a wire that you’re going to find.
Others purportedly have some special magic sound for an extra few hundred dollars, I’d avoid those unless you’re a billionaire.
Others purportedly have some special magic sound for an extra few hundred dollars, I’d avoid those unless you’re a billionaire.
phase:
I agree that the Clarity CMR caps are a particularly good buy; I used them in my Ultra FSP build. But while they represent a great value, I don't believe they're unique. Options exist, some expensive and some not.
Regards,
Scott
I agree that the Clarity CMR caps are a particularly good buy; I used them in my Ultra FSP build. But while they represent a great value, I don't believe they're unique. Options exist, some expensive and some not.
Regards,
Scott
If Philips, Nichicon, Panasonic PET capacitors were fitted, and you did a blind test without an empty pocket, you would never know the difference.
The main reason people think the most expensive is better is own psychology, proving that sales tactics expand sales.
The main reason people think the most expensive is better is own psychology, proving that sales tactics expand sales.
A hundred people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a standard Nichicon Ecap or an Xicon mylar cap over some rediculously priced boutique brand touting magical properties.
But.....
There's ONE person out there in Esoteric Land that will tell you differently.
And they're from another planet with hearing that can detect a 0.00000000021 percent difference in distortion.
But.....
There's ONE person out there in Esoteric Land that will tell you differently.
And they're from another planet with hearing that can detect a 0.00000000021 percent difference in distortion.
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Ha! I‘m sure I‘ll discern that 0.00000000000021% [emoji207]
I swallowed the bait and ordered those boutique caps, and I tried to find the corresponding something-cap to catch the difference. There are so many various types of caps I just don’t know if I got them right... (the values are, at least)
I swallowed the bait and ordered those boutique caps, and I tried to find the corresponding something-cap to catch the difference. There are so many various types of caps I just don’t know if I got them right... (the values are, at least)
If you decided to hear the difference, you will certainly hear it. This is what we call pre-biased.
The question regarding expensive boutique capacitors vs standard caps is a very polarized one, with well respected and experienced diyAudio members on both sides. Since you are investigating the issue, if you are undecided and confident in your ability to desolder the caps without damaging the board, I would suggest trying something low end like a plain jane Solens and then trying the Clarity CMR's or CSA's and see if you think there is a difference. If you are not confident about the desoldering, I suggest just going with the CMR's right off the bat in your preamp. I have a CMR and CSA combination in my FSP and I am happy with it. Good luck and have fun!
Aww, come on now!
First off, it's on Parts ConneXion, these so-called boutique caps.
And that website's loaded with snake oil garbage.
At the quote: "The MR and CMR are specially designed for ultra-low resonances and thrilling spatialization."
....Gives me the creeps just reading it!
Does anybodyactually BELIEVE that garbage?
I know what a capacitor is, I know what it does, what it's supposed to do, and not do.
To some, this may make you ill, but after 45 years in the service business, I've seen a lot of things already.
And cometh the internet, and its plethora of web pages, and volumes of information, I've seen and heard even more....... stuff.
But no one's going to convince me that these jive critters, costing such rediculous money are something worth investigating, other than they're plain and simple marketing hype to make someone else rich, and brainwash the masses at the same time.
First off, it's on Parts ConneXion, these so-called boutique caps.
And that website's loaded with snake oil garbage.
At the quote: "The MR and CMR are specially designed for ultra-low resonances and thrilling spatialization."
....Gives me the creeps just reading it!
Does anybodyactually BELIEVE that garbage?
I know what a capacitor is, I know what it does, what it's supposed to do, and not do.
To some, this may make you ill, but after 45 years in the service business, I've seen a lot of things already.
And cometh the internet, and its plethora of web pages, and volumes of information, I've seen and heard even more....... stuff.
But no one's going to convince me that these jive critters, costing such rediculous money are something worth investigating, other than they're plain and simple marketing hype to make someone else rich, and brainwash the masses at the same time.
Wiseoldtech
Firstly, I am rather self-ironic about hearing those 21^-12 % difference.
I'm not arguing here, since I haven't the arguments, nor the instruments to...
Otherhandly, I trust the creators of that gear I'm into building up and follow their recommendations even if there are doubts left.
Since I will build that stuff, it will be difficult to do blind tests. But hey, I'll test, and I'll keep whatever I prefer—if I really won't hear a difference, well, who am I to tell the community not to use magic? I may or may not keep the modest or the royal version...
Myleftear: "Since I will build that stuff, it will be difficult to do blind tests. But hey, I'll test, and I'll keep whatever I prefer—if I really won't hear a difference, well, who am I to tell the community not to use magic? I may or may not keep the modest or the royal version..."
Fundamentally, a capacitor involves two conducting "plates", seperated by an insulating material.
-------| |------- like this.
Indeed, the materials involved are of various types, depending on its rating and use.
Furthermore, the electron "flow" as it were, does not have a brain, nor "knows" any difference in materials.
Electrons do not understand "hype", and couldn't care less if they traveled through water, copper, or air itself (arcing).
They don't put on "smiling faces" if they travel through expensive materials like silver, gold, or such.
Those things are precious only to humans, who understand a difference.
Indeed, gold does benefit connections due to its lack of corrosion properties.
But would it also benefit being used in a sealed capacitor as the plates?
Would some alleged fancy insulating material also improve things?
The electroncs don't care.
People care. - and are bought by long-winded sales pitches.
Because electronic/electrical fundamentals are based on reality and are not affected by sales influences.
Ohms laws for instance, do not change because of fancy marketing.
Fundamentally, a capacitor involves two conducting "plates", seperated by an insulating material.
-------| |------- like this.
Indeed, the materials involved are of various types, depending on its rating and use.
Furthermore, the electron "flow" as it were, does not have a brain, nor "knows" any difference in materials.
Electrons do not understand "hype", and couldn't care less if they traveled through water, copper, or air itself (arcing).
They don't put on "smiling faces" if they travel through expensive materials like silver, gold, or such.
Those things are precious only to humans, who understand a difference.
Indeed, gold does benefit connections due to its lack of corrosion properties.
But would it also benefit being used in a sealed capacitor as the plates?
Would some alleged fancy insulating material also improve things?
The electroncs don't care.
People care. - and are bought by long-winded sales pitches.
Because electronic/electrical fundamentals are based on reality and are not affected by sales influences.
Ohms laws for instance, do not change because of fancy marketing.
wiseoldtech
Thanks for advising me.
Since you've read my posts, I think you see my point: ignorant, and skeptical.
You could help me sort this out a bit: What Capacitor would you go for? What should I, from your experience (which I don't question), put into positions C3, C4 (bottom-right on the board, obviously)
The board in question is Sala's new UltraFSP RIAA, (here's the schematic, and here's the board )
d.
Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold in oil I recommend if you go for the best. Maybe some will prefer DCS ( Duelund) Casted Copper. There is huge differences between capacitors but hard to explain. Measuring don't tell a ****.
Have you listened to this particular circuit?
In the first edition, which didn't look all that different, I used Mundorf S&G initially, didn't like it much, went to Clarity MR, which was perhaps better and eventually gave up, as none of the combinations suited my system or taste.
I find the Mundorf SIO and to a lesser extent the S&G strange and unnatural sounding in general and a particularly poor combination with the all fet riaa. A cap with more substance and meat may be more suitable there.
These Mundorfs may be great as a part of a tweeter crossover, but i have serious doubts when they are used full range.
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