Proposed 3-way design - comments/recommendations?
Hey fellow audio DIYers. newbie here. After 3 months of reading speaker reviews, endless pages of Econowave, dipole and horn design threads, I've decided to build my first pair of speakers instead of buying new 2-way bookshelf speakers for my apartment space. I figure for the same price I can do better.
Accordingly, I am hereby humbly accepting any constructive feedback from this forum's esteemed membership on my below overall design choices before I calibrate my table saw. Thank you in advance!
Objectives:
- medium loudness listening levels in a 16'x16' living room space, 8' high ceiling, music only
- desiring very good hi-fi low-upper midrange accuracy, clarity and balance for jazz, classical, R&B
- total audio components cost to be < $350.00
- will install pre-assembled crossover, not a custom-built crossover (because of job, kids and many hobbies time constraint)
- cannot be huge speakers (wife/GF speaker low dislike factor)
Overall design:
- 100-150W max power, passive, 3-way, floorstanding, 2 speakers only, no subwoofer planned
- committed to 12" woofer in bass-reflex cabinet (3.1 cu.ft.) - enclosure separate from midrange CD horn and supertweeter
- leaning towards a 1000Hz/5000Hz 8-ohm crossover and drivers
- going for controlled directivity with a midrange 1" compression driver horn - so far decided on a JBL JRX speaker waveguide clone like the ones used in the Econowave designs (rated good for down to 1000Hz, and with very minimal "colouration" as I understand it), eg., Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
- will order drivers and components from Parts Express and/or other recommended suppliers
- maybe prudent to install L-pads for midrange horns and supertweeters?
- construction: 3/4" MDF well braced cabinet w/ thicker front baffle made of MDF and maple or walnut veneer plywood exterior, internal sound dampening material is still TBD
Specific components:
- woofer, midrange 1" compression driver and supertweeter choices - still TBD
Existing audio path:
- mp3s, flacs on laptop/HDD --> Schitt Modi DAC --> 1990's Yamaha 60W/ch receiver--> speakers
- better hi-fi 100W 2-channel integrated SS amp planned for near future
- to add switchover tube amplfier option/experimenting in 5+ years
See included 2D frontal scale diagram of speaker design for your reference - this is how I would envision it.
So, what am I forgetting or should be considering? Or recommendations from anyone who has built a similar 3-way? And yes, I have reviewed the "So you want to design your own speaker from scratch!" thread.
Happy listening to all. 🙂
Hey fellow audio DIYers. newbie here. After 3 months of reading speaker reviews, endless pages of Econowave, dipole and horn design threads, I've decided to build my first pair of speakers instead of buying new 2-way bookshelf speakers for my apartment space. I figure for the same price I can do better.
Accordingly, I am hereby humbly accepting any constructive feedback from this forum's esteemed membership on my below overall design choices before I calibrate my table saw. Thank you in advance!
Objectives:
- medium loudness listening levels in a 16'x16' living room space, 8' high ceiling, music only
- desiring very good hi-fi low-upper midrange accuracy, clarity and balance for jazz, classical, R&B
- total audio components cost to be < $350.00
- will install pre-assembled crossover, not a custom-built crossover (because of job, kids and many hobbies time constraint)
- cannot be huge speakers (wife/GF speaker low dislike factor)
Overall design:
- 100-150W max power, passive, 3-way, floorstanding, 2 speakers only, no subwoofer planned
- committed to 12" woofer in bass-reflex cabinet (3.1 cu.ft.) - enclosure separate from midrange CD horn and supertweeter
- leaning towards a 1000Hz/5000Hz 8-ohm crossover and drivers
- going for controlled directivity with a midrange 1" compression driver horn - so far decided on a JBL JRX speaker waveguide clone like the ones used in the Econowave designs (rated good for down to 1000Hz, and with very minimal "colouration" as I understand it), eg., Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
- will order drivers and components from Parts Express and/or other recommended suppliers
- maybe prudent to install L-pads for midrange horns and supertweeters?
- construction: 3/4" MDF well braced cabinet w/ thicker front baffle made of MDF and maple or walnut veneer plywood exterior, internal sound dampening material is still TBD
Specific components:
- woofer, midrange 1" compression driver and supertweeter choices - still TBD
Existing audio path:
- mp3s, flacs on laptop/HDD --> Schitt Modi DAC --> 1990's Yamaha 60W/ch receiver--> speakers
- better hi-fi 100W 2-channel integrated SS amp planned for near future
- to add switchover tube amplfier option/experimenting in 5+ years
See included 2D frontal scale diagram of speaker design for your reference - this is how I would envision it.
So, what am I forgetting or should be considering? Or recommendations from anyone who has built a similar 3-way? And yes, I have reviewed the "So you want to design your own speaker from scratch!" thread.
Happy listening to all. 🙂
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A 2-way EconoWave with a 12" midbass will consume your $175/speaker budget.
The 12" Dayton DS315-8 with the paper cone for $78 is probably the lowest cost midbass which gets good feedback.
Since you already mentioned Parts Express
$76 Dayton 12" woofer DS315-8
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$34 Selenium 1" compression driver 2/3 Bolt
Selenium 8 Ohm Model: D220Ti-OMF-8 |Part # 299-2321
+ Crossover parts.
==============
The $105 B&C DE250 compression driver is worth the extra cost.
The $65 Peerless DFM-2544R00-8 compression driver has excellent sound but the crossover circuit is new.
OTHER low cost midbass..
The 12" Eminence Delta Pro 12A for $140 has modest cone breakup.
The 12" Eminence DeltaLite II 2512 Neo for $155 has good impedance control with Le= 0.43mH
The 12" Dayton DS315-8 with the paper cone for $78 is probably the lowest cost midbass which gets good feedback.
Since you already mentioned Parts Express
$76 Dayton 12" woofer DS315-8
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$34 Selenium 1" compression driver 2/3 Bolt
Selenium 8 Ohm Model: D220Ti-OMF-8 |Part # 299-2321
+ Crossover parts.
==============
The $105 B&C DE250 compression driver is worth the extra cost.
The $65 Peerless DFM-2544R00-8 compression driver has excellent sound but the crossover circuit is new.
OTHER low cost midbass..
The 12" Eminence Delta Pro 12A for $140 has modest cone breakup.
The 12" Eminence DeltaLite II 2512 Neo for $155 has good impedance control with Le= 0.43mH
You really need to decide on one of two paths. If you want to have fun building something of your own creation, but don’t really care that much how it sounds then you are on the right path. However, if your goal is to have the very best audio performance and sound quality that you can get for $350, then you’re wasting your time and money
There is no way with your approach, especially with prebuilt general purpose crossovers, that you will get anywhere near top performance. You’ll be lucky if it’s even half way decent and listenable.
If you really read the 'So You Want to Design Own Speaker from Scratch' thread, you apparently missed two very important points that wintermute made:
“Before we go any further I am going to suggest that as a first from scratch design you really, REALLY should limit yourself to a two way ....
You can always add a sub-woofer for augmentation of the bass, or depending on the design perhaps a pair of woofers added in separate cabinets at a later date can transform them into three ways when you are ready for the next level of challenge!”
and then
“Designing the Crossover
This is the easy bit right? Just go to an online calculator put in the frequency you want to crossover at and it will spit out the values right? Or just go to partsexpress and purchase a ready made crossover that crosses over at a suitable frequency.
If only it were this easy. If speakers had a completely flat frequency response, and a completely flat impedance, and the distance from each driver to your ears was the same then yes that would work, however that is not the case in reality and we need to take these things into account. “
There are kits by very experienced designers that will run circles around anything you might cobble together. You’ll find the better ones at Meniscus Audio, Madisound, and diySoundGroup. Parts Express has some as well, but they tend to feature their own Dayton drivers, which limits the designs available.
For about $50 Meniscus will build the crossovers for you if you order a kit from them. That leaves about $300 for the rest of the components. You could look at the Blues TM, Blues MTM, Overnight Sensations TMM, Classix II, Soprano TM, or several others that will all fit nicely nto your budget. And sound great.
There is no way with your approach, especially with prebuilt general purpose crossovers, that you will get anywhere near top performance. You’ll be lucky if it’s even half way decent and listenable.
If you really read the 'So You Want to Design Own Speaker from Scratch' thread, you apparently missed two very important points that wintermute made:
“Before we go any further I am going to suggest that as a first from scratch design you really, REALLY should limit yourself to a two way ....
You can always add a sub-woofer for augmentation of the bass, or depending on the design perhaps a pair of woofers added in separate cabinets at a later date can transform them into three ways when you are ready for the next level of challenge!”
and then
“Designing the Crossover
This is the easy bit right? Just go to an online calculator put in the frequency you want to crossover at and it will spit out the values right? Or just go to partsexpress and purchase a ready made crossover that crosses over at a suitable frequency.
If only it were this easy. If speakers had a completely flat frequency response, and a completely flat impedance, and the distance from each driver to your ears was the same then yes that would work, however that is not the case in reality and we need to take these things into account. “
There are kits by very experienced designers that will run circles around anything you might cobble together. You’ll find the better ones at Meniscus Audio, Madisound, and diySoundGroup. Parts Express has some as well, but they tend to feature their own Dayton drivers, which limits the designs available.
For about $50 Meniscus will build the crossovers for you if you order a kit from them. That leaves about $300 for the rest of the components. You could look at the Blues TM, Blues MTM, Overnight Sensations TMM, Classix II, Soprano TM, or several others that will all fit nicely nto your budget. And sound great.
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Some thoughts:
- Ditch the super-tweeter, use a better 1" driver.
- You should really be using a measurement mic and a custom crossover. This won't sound good with a generic crossover.
- For decent sound on a budget, I can't think of anything that beats the Behringer B2031A.
Chris
- Ditch the super-tweeter, use a better 1" driver.
- You should really be using a measurement mic and a custom crossover. This won't sound good with a generic crossover.
- For decent sound on a budget, I can't think of anything that beats the Behringer B2031A.
Chris
I know a guy who put together the "Tarkus". He had no experience in building speakers, and built them in a simple rectalinear box similar to the drawing above from LineSource.
I was quite impressed with how they sounded, although I have only listened to them once. If you want a good sounding, big 3-way, I think the Tarkus is a good low-cost option. Of course it is possible to spend more, but this is a really good speaker for the money.
I was quite impressed with how they sounded, although I have only listened to them once. If you want a good sounding, big 3-way, I think the Tarkus is a good low-cost option. Of course it is possible to spend more, but this is a really good speaker for the money.
just if trade offs
SLS-P830669 – Tymphany :100 euros : goes lower than many 12 PA but maybe not as clean in the mids than a Delta II ?! Less efficienty but easier bass (avoid a 15" PA), typically hifi, so low efficienty ! But is said to worth every penny.
ask to reduce the bill elswhere though. Just be carefull with the passive parts whole price in your final choice.
SLS-P830669 – Tymphany :100 euros : goes lower than many 12 PA but maybe not as clean in the mids than a Delta II ?! Less efficienty but easier bass (avoid a 15" PA), typically hifi, so low efficienty ! But is said to worth every penny.
ask to reduce the bill elswhere though. Just be carefull with the passive parts whole price in your final choice.
'pre-assembled crossover' - there should probably be a sticky thread on how to use these for the lazy thinkers.... basically zobel the carp out of them (of course, if you have to do that then you might as well design a proper xover....)
Don't. On-line calculators or pre-made crossovers assume your drivers have a flat impedance across the frequency spectrum. None do. Have a look at a graph of your favourite woofer / any driver.
Add to the fact there might be driver breakup to attenuate, then you are adding components... so you may as well design your own.
Either:
1. Invest in a calibrated microphone and time to learn REW (free software) to measure and design a crossover for your bespoke speaker
2. Build a pre-designed speaker e.g. Tarkus
.... or your 3 way will sound worse than a well designed 2-way
You’re the fourth one to offer this advice, but so far there has been no acknowledgement from redSLED that he intends to take it. I hope that he does.
It’s interesting that almost every week there is a post by a newbie who thinks he has created the best speaker in the world even though this is his first and only attempt. And usually they don’t even have the microphone or software tools to measure and tweak it. Nor do they seem to be at all accounting for the fact that the room is likely to be 50% of what you hear.
What’s also interesting is that those same people rarely come back later and discuss the wonderful sound that they achieved from their creation. I think that tells something for anyone who cares to get the message.
It’s interesting that almost every week there is a post by a newbie who thinks he has created the best speaker in the world even though this is his first and only attempt. And usually they don’t even have the microphone or software tools to measure and tweak it. Nor do they seem to be at all accounting for the fact that the room is likely to be 50% of what you hear.
What’s also interesting is that those same people rarely come back later and discuss the wonderful sound that they achieved from their creation. I think that tells something for anyone who cares to get the message.
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"fourth one to offer this advice" - actually, I was trying to offer an alternative to the 'don't do it' advice, because the question comes up so frequently....
I guess that I took your comment ….(of course, if you have to do that then you might as well design a proper xover)...to mean don't do it at all.
There are many good designs based on some older premade crossovers, but unfortunately they relied on older and no longer available drivers from Radio Shack/Tandy and such-like.
It is how I started in DIY and they were a good learning base/starting point.
It is how I started; it is not what I do now but I do still like tinkering, it's why I pick-up road kill.
It is how I started in DIY and they were a good learning base/starting point.
It is how I started; it is not what I do now but I do still like tinkering, it's why I pick-up road kill.
Pasive XO parts for a first build will satelise the whole budget, try & error, curiosity factor and so on is a wallet trap. Advices above if the loudspeaker is to swap the main are not bad advices.
The best chance to limit financial collapsing are indeed a cheap mic and a free software and those cheap chip T-Amp or clone that have 2 o 3 ways electronic XO qnd DSP... but not the a 300 usd budget with the drivers and wood.
Frankly there are tons of good second hands that can be tweaked for few or reliable kits famous enough to be named "good enough" approval in the 300 range.
The best chance to limit financial collapsing are indeed a cheap mic and a free software and those cheap chip T-Amp or clone that have 2 o 3 ways electronic XO qnd DSP... but not the a 300 usd budget with the drivers and wood.
Frankly there are tons of good second hands that can be tweaked for few or reliable kits famous enough to be named "good enough" approval in the 300 range.
I agree, it's how I started, but that was a couple of decades ago. You don't need to start that way today.
I am hearing that some wise audio folk are rightly directing me to design my own crossover - so this will take me longer than I thought. I will also raise my components budget another $250 because I now want to go with a 2" CD midrange driver and a slightly larger waveguide (still aiming for a good 1000-5000/6000Hz).
And based on my decision to stick with a 12" woofer in a small footprint cabinet, I'm considering dumping the base-reflex plan and using an existing, proven (commercially successful) transmission line design instead. I sure that decision will raise some new challenges.
My end strategy will still be to evaluate my own speaker build subjectively - by listening only - when it is pre-assembled, before I glue up and paint everything. Should the first trial be less than very good, the disassembly and modifying phase will ensue! I simply don't have the time or interest to invest in measuring equipment and analysis. I believe I will know a very good flat response when I hear it. A pre-built speaker kit is not in my future.
Thanks to those who've given me advice on driver choices - I'll be digesting all the specs later this week.
And based on my decision to stick with a 12" woofer in a small footprint cabinet, I'm considering dumping the base-reflex plan and using an existing, proven (commercially successful) transmission line design instead. I sure that decision will raise some new challenges.
My end strategy will still be to evaluate my own speaker build subjectively - by listening only - when it is pre-assembled, before I glue up and paint everything. Should the first trial be less than very good, the disassembly and modifying phase will ensue! I simply don't have the time or interest to invest in measuring equipment and analysis. I believe I will know a very good flat response when I hear it. A pre-built speaker kit is not in my future.
Thanks to those who've given me advice on driver choices - I'll be digesting all the specs later this week.
Yup, I'm sure this is where it's going.
For extra cash, I have extra power tools, comics and 2 pair of older 8/10 condition speakers to sell (some Best Buy crappy towers and some Mission M70s that sound un-engaging to me).
Thanks to the folks here, and to this great forum, I will attempt my own crossover. Lots of more reading for me to do.
The slightly revised current plan then is:
- 3-way, passive floorstanding 2 speakers, full DIY, no kits, no subwoofer anywhere
- custom crossover, approx 1000/5000Hz target, 8 ohms
- basic rule for power handling of drivers: woofer = 2-3x midrange = 2-3x tweeter
- 12" woofer, TL cabinet with upward or downward firing port
- separate-from-cabinet 2" CD midrange driver & controlled directivity waveguide - will choose a combo with a horn mouth not larger than 18"w x 10"h (round tractrix horn is not a contender for now) that many tinkering horn audiophiles extol on their blog or on other threads
- based on readily available new 2" CD horn drivers' specs, I'm believing I will have to L-pad or parallel-resistor its SPL down somewhat to match it with available new woofer (Dayton maybe) choices and their SPL levels. We shall see.
- aesthetics:
- super/bullet tweeter on top of midrange - because it will look super cool
- front baffle to extend 1" all around wider than cabinet attached behind it - to showcase front baffle - to be made of solid 1-1/2" walnut - because I have 2 pieces acquired a few months ago in a trade! Walnut would be clear lacquered - no golden-oiled/varnished grandmother-furniture-looking finish desired!
Thanks for the feedback/comments thus far, it is appreciated. My speaker DIY journey officially begins. But wait, summer is here . . . so many things to do.
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LineSource, that is already my shortlisted #1 woofer choice - thanks for the confirmation
