My vintage Dual turntable has fairly low capacitance wiring (155pF total according to the Internet). The Dual was designed to play CD4 records which needed frequency response >40KHz. I think that all turntables from the latter half of the 1970s were like this.
Ed
Ed
Maybe, but the preamp had to be designed without the HF roll off to extract the subcarrier (about 40 KHz, less actually) before the EQ. It depended on the cartridge and stylus more than anything.
The problem with making phonographs with very low capacitance cables was that most people didn't care about quadraphonic records. So for stereo, they would have actually been a problem for the bulk of the market. I used to sell and repair that stuff. From very dim memory, that capacitance was about average for turntables. I remember measuring many tables from way back. I could measure my Thorens TD-125 MKII and a few others.
The main problem was the extra amplifiers and speakers. It was too expensive, plus the cartridge and the records themselves. It was also a difficult sell for the outboard CD-4 adapters.
The problem with making phonographs with very low capacitance cables was that most people didn't care about quadraphonic records. So for stereo, they would have actually been a problem for the bulk of the market. I used to sell and repair that stuff. From very dim memory, that capacitance was about average for turntables. I remember measuring many tables from way back. I could measure my Thorens TD-125 MKII and a few others.
The main problem was the extra amplifiers and speakers. It was too expensive, plus the cartridge and the records themselves. It was also a difficult sell for the outboard CD-4 adapters.
I acquired a CD4 record by mistake, or rather because I wanted the work and it was the only version available. Despite the claims of compatibility, it wasn’t. Sounded terrible through a decent stereo.
I have to say, never tried doing that. I can see if the tracking weight wasn't high enough, it would sound just awful!
I can't imagine how disappointed you were.
I can't imagine how disappointed you were.
CD4 wasn’t marketed as requiring higher tracking weight, otherwise I would have adjusted it. I still have the LP and it still sounds terrible via a V15.
Without the special stylus, yours probably needed more force. Earlier stylus profiles wouldn't always seat and may bounce up in the groove. The CD-4 was very much hyper-elliptical.
So required tracking force has everything to do with your cartridge playing normal records. I don't know how they were marketed, you just never saw anyone try to play a CD-4 on stereo equipment. I'm sure some have tried here also.
So required tracking force has everything to do with your cartridge playing normal records. I don't know how they were marketed, you just never saw anyone try to play a CD-4 on stereo equipment. I'm sure some have tried here also.
Slightly back on point: I quite like Belden 9180 for Interconnect duty.
13pF/ft twisted pair, foil shield with drain wire. Foamed PE conductor insulation.
Use your connector of choice.
I think it sounds great. Cheap: if you don’t like it, not a huge investment lost.
One can slice and dice how one deals with the shield drain wire: for RCAs, ground the shield at the source end ground connection (mark your RCA so you remember which end…) or split out the shield wire, cover it with some heat shrink tubing and connnect it to your ground post. If you are using 3 pin/socket XLR or Mini XLR (BeCu contacts for not much dough, I use for SE signals too) bring the shield to one of the plug connections and wire in a shield ground wire on the socket end.
9180 will not win any contests for visual impressiveness as it’s only 3.7mm OD.
The grey PVC jacket some may not thrill some folks.
I used to use solid silver in teflon tubing. Now I (mostly) use 9180.
https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/9180_techdata.pdf
I get mine by the foot/meter at my local belden distributor. A couple of bucks a meter.
Also great for internal wiring of equipment.
My 2 cents, ymmv etc etc
13pF/ft twisted pair, foil shield with drain wire. Foamed PE conductor insulation.
Use your connector of choice.
I think it sounds great. Cheap: if you don’t like it, not a huge investment lost.
One can slice and dice how one deals with the shield drain wire: for RCAs, ground the shield at the source end ground connection (mark your RCA so you remember which end…) or split out the shield wire, cover it with some heat shrink tubing and connnect it to your ground post. If you are using 3 pin/socket XLR or Mini XLR (BeCu contacts for not much dough, I use for SE signals too) bring the shield to one of the plug connections and wire in a shield ground wire on the socket end.
9180 will not win any contests for visual impressiveness as it’s only 3.7mm OD.
The grey PVC jacket some may not thrill some folks.
I used to use solid silver in teflon tubing. Now I (mostly) use 9180.
https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/9180_techdata.pdf
I get mine by the foot/meter at my local belden distributor. A couple of bucks a meter.
Also great for internal wiring of equipment.
My 2 cents, ymmv etc etc
Hi poldaaudio,
So tell me, how does stock phono cable stack up? Trying to stay relevant instead of arguing pointless details.
The low capacitance aspect is actually not helpful at all. That has been explained. Now, the large diameter can be an issue, even to forcing the panels in turntables to be enlarged (read: hacked out) in order to pass this cable through. Never mind the problems you may run into on the RCA end.
Guitar cable does come in cool colours if that is your thing.
So tell me, how does stock phono cable stack up? Trying to stay relevant instead of arguing pointless details.
The low capacitance aspect is actually not helpful at all. That has been explained. Now, the large diameter can be an issue, even to forcing the panels in turntables to be enlarged (read: hacked out) in order to pass this cable through. Never mind the problems you may run into on the RCA end.
Guitar cable does come in cool colours if that is your thing.
Hi poldaaudio,
The wire normally hasn't enough capacitance to load the cartridge (by design). Therefore, the extra needed is installed at the preamp. By changing the wire, especially to low capacitance, you force the need to measure the wire capacitance and adjust the load in the preamp. Is this clear to you?
Most people do not own a real LCR meter. So results are either inaccurate, or they guess. You also must measure the existing capacitance in the preamp, power on. Then you adjust the pad value of the capacitors in the preamp.
All this has been explained in this thread. If you need help understanding the concept, we can try to help you. What part seems to be the problem?
The wire normally hasn't enough capacitance to load the cartridge (by design). Therefore, the extra needed is installed at the preamp. By changing the wire, especially to low capacitance, you force the need to measure the wire capacitance and adjust the load in the preamp. Is this clear to you?
Most people do not own a real LCR meter. So results are either inaccurate, or they guess. You also must measure the existing capacitance in the preamp, power on. Then you adjust the pad value of the capacitors in the preamp.
All this has been explained in this thread. If you need help understanding the concept, we can try to help you. What part seems to be the problem?
So you better start with a cabling with "unknown properties"? Or is a cabling with known properties, like "50pF per meter" maybe a wiser decision to use?
H Haenk,
Obviously you would want to know something about the cabling. That's why it should be measured. Also, you can see what the dielectric is when using a good LCR meter.
The average person with the average cartridge would probably be happy with the factory cable. Everything is likely in the ballpark. However, when you decide to demand more, it is assumed you have a good turntable with better cables. You are using a (hopefully) better cartridge as part of the package that matches the characteristics of the arm on the table. Under those conditions, the cables should be a known quantity and the factory cables may be fine. You also need to measure the input load in the preamplifier and compare that to the cartridge requirements.
Are we good so far? I was doing this in the 1980's with an HP 4261A.
Now as soon as another different cable is installed, it needs to be measured. This is all I have said. Compensate as required. If a poor quality cable has been decided upon, perhaps manufactured by maidens under a full moon only, that's their problem. The cartridge doesn't care. If you use something that allows hum pickup, again your problem, same for a dielectric with "issues". Mind you, all that is counter to getting better performance.
This is a really simple thing, really simple. What specifically has anyone got a problem with?
Obviously you would want to know something about the cabling. That's why it should be measured. Also, you can see what the dielectric is when using a good LCR meter.
The average person with the average cartridge would probably be happy with the factory cable. Everything is likely in the ballpark. However, when you decide to demand more, it is assumed you have a good turntable with better cables. You are using a (hopefully) better cartridge as part of the package that matches the characteristics of the arm on the table. Under those conditions, the cables should be a known quantity and the factory cables may be fine. You also need to measure the input load in the preamplifier and compare that to the cartridge requirements.
Are we good so far? I was doing this in the 1980's with an HP 4261A.
Now as soon as another different cable is installed, it needs to be measured. This is all I have said. Compensate as required. If a poor quality cable has been decided upon, perhaps manufactured by maidens under a full moon only, that's their problem. The cartridge doesn't care. If you use something that allows hum pickup, again your problem, same for a dielectric with "issues". Mind you, all that is counter to getting better performance.
This is a really simple thing, really simple. What specifically has anyone got a problem with?
Probably your implicit assumption that the factory-installed cable is long enough for everyone and has a low enough capacitance for almost all practical cartridges. It's very cartridge-dependent; a Shure V15 III requires some 450 pF to correct for a peak in its mechanical response, many more modern cartridges have no such peak and work best with a quite low capacitance.
Hi Marcel,
Absolutely correct. It is cartridge dependent. Most cables are more than long enough, and phono preamplifiers always have a pad capacitor across the input. I have yet to see one that doesn't. However, the leads between the turntable and the preamp are the last ones you would wish to extend. Anyway, extended leads or not, you still end up measuring the total load capacitance presented to the cartridge, reading it's data sheet and correcting for the expected capacitance. Nothing I said changed.
If you want the best performance, you would locate a phono preamplifier unit close to the turntable (or have it installed into the turntable). Run the line level output to the preamplifier, balanced if you had to run any real distance.
As for audio products, there is no end of examples where a manufacturer will design something so far off standard they need special handling. Speakers being the most famous for stupid designs. If a phono cartridge was designed that required no load capacitance, it stands to reason the manufacturer would build, or partner with someone to build the special phono preamplifer. Probably to be located at the base of the tonearm inside the turntable.
But you see, now we are talking about rare special instances and are again removed from the average user. The OP wasn't going down this path, or didn't mention this very important information.
Absolutely correct. It is cartridge dependent. Most cables are more than long enough, and phono preamplifiers always have a pad capacitor across the input. I have yet to see one that doesn't. However, the leads between the turntable and the preamp are the last ones you would wish to extend. Anyway, extended leads or not, you still end up measuring the total load capacitance presented to the cartridge, reading it's data sheet and correcting for the expected capacitance. Nothing I said changed.
If you want the best performance, you would locate a phono preamplifier unit close to the turntable (or have it installed into the turntable). Run the line level output to the preamplifier, balanced if you had to run any real distance.
As for audio products, there is no end of examples where a manufacturer will design something so far off standard they need special handling. Speakers being the most famous for stupid designs. If a phono cartridge was designed that required no load capacitance, it stands to reason the manufacturer would build, or partner with someone to build the special phono preamplifer. Probably to be located at the base of the tonearm inside the turntable.
But you see, now we are talking about rare special instances and are again removed from the average user. The OP wasn't going down this path, or didn't mention this very important information.
Everyone here not suffering from reading comprehension difficulties is aware that this is exactly what the OP needs to do.
Hence why he was asking about low capacitance cables.
Some tried to deliver some relevant facts pertaining to cable capacitance and the possible implications thereof for long lead runs, but they just got condescendingly shouted down by you with ignorant BS and patently false claims of "patently untrue".
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Hi poldaaudio,
Keeping on track now. The only thing that matters to the cartridge is what capacitive and resistive load it sees. Correct? To the user of a turntable, what matters is the cable is easy to work with and doesn't fail. On top of that, it would be nice if it was nicely shielded and didn't lend any additional distortion or noise. Turntable cables typically remain stationary once set up, unless the table is on a rolling shelf in a wall unit or similar. Do you have any problems with what I just said?
So, if that's the case, you are simply complaining about me. Not helpful to the thread. I'll admit to being sensitive when I see a thread get dragged into the weeds on stuff that doesn't matter. People arguing "just because" or to make a point that is unrelated.
Keeping on track now. The only thing that matters to the cartridge is what capacitive and resistive load it sees. Correct? To the user of a turntable, what matters is the cable is easy to work with and doesn't fail. On top of that, it would be nice if it was nicely shielded and didn't lend any additional distortion or noise. Turntable cables typically remain stationary once set up, unless the table is on a rolling shelf in a wall unit or similar. Do you have any problems with what I just said?
So, if that's the case, you are simply complaining about me. Not helpful to the thread. I'll admit to being sensitive when I see a thread get dragged into the weeds on stuff that doesn't matter. People arguing "just because" or to make a point that is unrelated.