Over the last 5 months, I have been building a budget stereo system (Akitika GT 102 amp w/volume control [pre-built], Thorens TD 165 turntable, CSS Citron 1-TD speaker, Rotel 855 CD player, no money for preamp yet). The irony is that the more that I improve the system, the worse the CD player and turntable sound. But the cheap 12 foot cable with RCA to 1/8 inch plug inserted into my cell phone to listen to YouTube classical music videos sounds better and better - the worst source!
I believe that I have very sensitive ears - speakers with strong high-frequency presentation hurt my ears - especially Klipsch. So do high powered Wi-Fi routers.
It recently found out that YouTube cuts off frequencies over 15 kilohertz. So a possible simple solution to my stereo problem would be a low pass filter at 15 kilohertz.
I know almost nothing about electronics. But is it possible to build / purchase a 15 kilohertz low pass filter? And should that filter be inserted between the amplifier and the speakers? Or someplace else, such as the interconnect cables?
(BTW, I have a friend that could help me build the low pass filter, given a schematic and a list of recommended quality components).
Many thanks from this music loving electronics noob.
I believe that I have very sensitive ears - speakers with strong high-frequency presentation hurt my ears - especially Klipsch. So do high powered Wi-Fi routers.
It recently found out that YouTube cuts off frequencies over 15 kilohertz. So a possible simple solution to my stereo problem would be a low pass filter at 15 kilohertz.
I know almost nothing about electronics. But is it possible to build / purchase a 15 kilohertz low pass filter? And should that filter be inserted between the amplifier and the speakers? Or someplace else, such as the interconnect cables?
(BTW, I have a friend that could help me build the low pass filter, given a schematic and a list of recommended quality components).
Many thanks from this music loving electronics noob.
Mismatch of components is one explanation.
Just try hanging a towel in front of the tweeters to tame the HFs.
Just try hanging a towel in front of the tweeters to tame the HFs.
Sorry, but this is no good idea. A high pass filter will remove very important detail information from the music.
If you prefer YT music to CD, this will be a cause of the recording. In case of your record player there is one point: Until you use an expensive pickup in perfect condition, exactly adjusted in the tone arm and matching its weight class, a record will sound much worse than any CD. The usual OEM pickups are not audiophile, but more for the players function test. Even if some very religious people will tell you the opposite. Also you need excellent recordings on as new preserved records. In the end your average stock record player will be maxed out at 16kHz anyway, so no need for "your high pass filter".
What about Spotify, does it sound worse than YT crap too?
If you prefer YT music to CD, this will be a cause of the recording. In case of your record player there is one point: Until you use an expensive pickup in perfect condition, exactly adjusted in the tone arm and matching its weight class, a record will sound much worse than any CD. The usual OEM pickups are not audiophile, but more for the players function test. Even if some very religious people will tell you the opposite. Also you need excellent recordings on as new preserved records. In the end your average stock record player will be maxed out at 16kHz anyway, so no need for "your high pass filter".
What about Spotify, does it sound worse than YT crap too?
It’s probably not 15KHz that’s bothering you. Probably excess in the 2k to 8k range. What you need are speakers with a “darker” presentation. A combination of a “BBC dip” and full baffle step compensation. You will end up hearing detail in the music like never before, when your ears aren’t being bombarded with excess where they are the most sensitive.
Well, I do the opposite: I purposely ( not really, it's what I have on hand) use more sensitive tweeters ( than the woofer, as the norm) and while there's too much treble with normal sources, the extra output of the tweeter recovers from the treble deficiency of YT. Diminishing the treble with tone controls is what I do with other sources.
ASR review shows the CSS Citron 1-TD to be quite peaky in the 10~20kHz band, so perhaps your subjective perception is correct, bsmith.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/css-criton-1td-x-kit-speaker-review.41923/
But there's also peakiness 3~7 kHz, which would be more objectionable to me. That's a known high annoyance band. And more audible to most. The Klipsch you say you don't like has high output in this mid/high band, not >15kHz. I doubt any of the Klipsch have any significant output up there.
You'd benefit from some EQ capability to tone down the frequency bands that bother you. Consider the EQ applied by ASR to make the speaker sound better.
PS -- how do you listen to your turntable with no preamp? AFAIK, that amp of yours does not have a phono preamp with RIAA eq.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/css-criton-1td-x-kit-speaker-review.41923/
But there's also peakiness 3~7 kHz, which would be more objectionable to me. That's a known high annoyance band. And more audible to most. The Klipsch you say you don't like has high output in this mid/high band, not >15kHz. I doubt any of the Klipsch have any significant output up there.
You'd benefit from some EQ capability to tone down the frequency bands that bother you. Consider the EQ applied by ASR to make the speaker sound better.
PS -- how do you listen to your turntable with no preamp? AFAIK, that amp of yours does not have a phono preamp with RIAA eq.
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Okay! You have convinced me that I do not need the low pass filter at 15 kilohertz.
Right now there are a number of things that I can do:
- I replaced a cheap interconnect with a Beldon 8402 cable. I didn't realize that cables also take some time to break in. So the system is improving simply by allowing the new cable to break in.
- I purchased the Thorens for $100. It was broken - the anti-skate rods on the tonarm were broken off, and replaced with pop rivet shafts. It works nice now, except for the old turntable belt. I couldn't replace it, because the motor pulley was very messed up. So I ordered a new one.
- I was not able to purchase the upgraded crossover and upgraded Twitter for my speakers. That is an upgrade that I hope to make in the future. This should help some of my problem.
- I used 16 gauge speaker wire, because it was all I could afford at the time. I will be receiving in a day or so some 12 gauge OFC. It was a cheap upgrade. Hopefully it will make an impact also.
- I am not sure what the terminology is today. I was into stereos in the '70s, and things have changed. I do not have a preamplifier - as it used to be known - but I do have a external phono stage - a Fosi audio box X2. It was cheap, but does an adequate job. I purchased a $20 RCA switch to change sources. A preamplifier with EQ capability is on my long-term wish list.
- there is something about analog - even though my turntable is limited, and many of my records are scratched and scuffed, in some ways I still prefer them to YouTube or Spotify. Vinyl seems to be a bit more"alive" then the digital sources that I have access to (due to my financial constraints, I do not have Wi-Fi in my home. I have to use the data on my cell phone to get YouTube -such is the life of a music lover with champagne taste and a beer budget!).
Thanks all for your input. I have a number of choices on where to go once I become rich - even though at age 72, it is not likely to happen.
Right now there are a number of things that I can do:
- I replaced a cheap interconnect with a Beldon 8402 cable. I didn't realize that cables also take some time to break in. So the system is improving simply by allowing the new cable to break in.
- I purchased the Thorens for $100. It was broken - the anti-skate rods on the tonarm were broken off, and replaced with pop rivet shafts. It works nice now, except for the old turntable belt. I couldn't replace it, because the motor pulley was very messed up. So I ordered a new one.
- I was not able to purchase the upgraded crossover and upgraded Twitter for my speakers. That is an upgrade that I hope to make in the future. This should help some of my problem.
- I used 16 gauge speaker wire, because it was all I could afford at the time. I will be receiving in a day or so some 12 gauge OFC. It was a cheap upgrade. Hopefully it will make an impact also.
- I am not sure what the terminology is today. I was into stereos in the '70s, and things have changed. I do not have a preamplifier - as it used to be known - but I do have a external phono stage - a Fosi audio box X2. It was cheap, but does an adequate job. I purchased a $20 RCA switch to change sources. A preamplifier with EQ capability is on my long-term wish list.
- there is something about analog - even though my turntable is limited, and many of my records are scratched and scuffed, in some ways I still prefer them to YouTube or Spotify. Vinyl seems to be a bit more"alive" then the digital sources that I have access to (due to my financial constraints, I do not have Wi-Fi in my home. I have to use the data on my cell phone to get YouTube -such is the life of a music lover with champagne taste and a beer budget!).
Thanks all for your input. I have a number of choices on where to go once I become rich - even though at age 72, it is not likely to happen.
Changing cables will have zero audible effect unless they are intermittent, corroded beyond belief or broken. Other factors are far more significant -- like the state of your TT, tonearm, cartridge.
Too bad you didn't pick up a Wiim Amp or Amp Pro. Plenty good enough sound quality for a starter high end system & features galore -- connectivity, EQ & Parametric EQ, decent sub out function, streaming almost every kind of service, Bluetooth, etc. And cheap.
Too bad you didn't pick up a Wiim Amp or Amp Pro. Plenty good enough sound quality for a starter high end system & features galore -- connectivity, EQ & Parametric EQ, decent sub out function, streaming almost every kind of service, Bluetooth, etc. And cheap.
cables are just cables, but the connections are important.
As you improve your system, it will increase dynamics, reduce compression, and the gain in the bass sub 120hz region will complicate a lot your listening.
smaller drivers have less aggressive and compressed presentation which reduce fatigue.
don't give up... its a huge merry go round.
A lot of 'modern' problems in audio is caused by dirty electricity as I just learn about.
Tube amps will sweeten a hifi system and reduce the dynamics a little, it will filter all harshness which cripple old class AB amps.
There is a price to pay for silence in between notes and clarity.
Try filtering the mains, and using USB filters, and Isolation transformers.
As you improve your system, it will increase dynamics, reduce compression, and the gain in the bass sub 120hz region will complicate a lot your listening.
smaller drivers have less aggressive and compressed presentation which reduce fatigue.
don't give up... its a huge merry go round.
A lot of 'modern' problems in audio is caused by dirty electricity as I just learn about.
Tube amps will sweeten a hifi system and reduce the dynamics a little, it will filter all harshness which cripple old class AB amps.
There is a price to pay for silence in between notes and clarity.
Try filtering the mains, and using USB filters, and Isolation transformers.
Most of what you experience is caused by the filter on the midrange....
you are listening to full range crappy driver which has no filter and is free to resonate at will
The inductors in the woofer and Mid in series, as well as caps to ground reduces the speed of dynamics and removes a lot of sound information.
This is another price to pay for reduced THD and reduced NOISES.
That is why simple is better, don't look for a -3db bass specification and THD to judge quality, it is quite the opposite.
you are listening to full range crappy driver which has no filter and is free to resonate at will
The inductors in the woofer and Mid in series, as well as caps to ground reduces the speed of dynamics and removes a lot of sound information.
This is another price to pay for reduced THD and reduced NOISES.
That is why simple is better, don't look for a -3db bass specification and THD to judge quality, it is quite the opposite.
Thanks again for all your suggestions. Definitely a lot to think about.
One thing to do, or at least consider in the future, is some EQ. What would a solution look like to adjust for this "high annoyance band?" Keep in mind that I am on a very restricted budget. I had to sell an asset just to finance the $2,000 investment in stereo I have up to this point.
I had considered the Wiim amp. I do not have the funds at this time to have Wi-Fi in my home - I dropped it to save a few bucks. So streaming capabilities were not a priority for me. I am a bit leery of class d amps. I have not really listened to class d in quite some time. Possibly they are advanced enough that they will give a decent sound.
Also, any recommendation on upgrade path would be appreciated. Again, I'm looking for the biggest bang for the buck. Would a traditional preamplifier be in order? I have gotten away without any preamplifier to this point, but maybe there are benefits that I am not aware of. my budget for an improvement, such as a preamp, would be on the order of about $500.
Thanks again for all of your comments!
One thing to do, or at least consider in the future, is some EQ. What would a solution look like to adjust for this "high annoyance band?" Keep in mind that I am on a very restricted budget. I had to sell an asset just to finance the $2,000 investment in stereo I have up to this point.
I had considered the Wiim amp. I do not have the funds at this time to have Wi-Fi in my home - I dropped it to save a few bucks. So streaming capabilities were not a priority for me. I am a bit leery of class d amps. I have not really listened to class d in quite some time. Possibly they are advanced enough that they will give a decent sound.
Also, any recommendation on upgrade path would be appreciated. Again, I'm looking for the biggest bang for the buck. Would a traditional preamplifier be in order? I have gotten away without any preamplifier to this point, but maybe there are benefits that I am not aware of. my budget for an improvement, such as a preamp, would be on the order of about $500.
Thanks again for all of your comments!
Hypex & Purifi class D amps are used by numerous high end brands who use their modules in swish cases & high price tags. Their modules are available retail to DIYers, who assemble them, sometimes as nicely as the HiFi brands. Then there's the inexpensive Chinese offerings, using the ubiquitous 3255 chip amp, some that challenge the performance of the marquee brands. Class D has come a long way.
A traditional preamp won't do anything for you, really. I'd look for something with EQ --look at the budget Chinese brands, including the Wiim Ultra. Before tariffs actually start affecting prices.
A traditional preamp won't do anything for you, really. I'd look for something with EQ --look at the budget Chinese brands, including the Wiim Ultra. Before tariffs actually start affecting prices.
Almost any set of used KEF speakers, and most of the issues should go away. Give them a thorough listen somewhere, and see if this might be the way to go.
Don't use money on cables or other exotic tweaks - since your experience with the current CSS speaker, are most likely just you hearing the shortcomings of the design, as others already pointed out 🙂
Don't use money on cables or other exotic tweaks - since your experience with the current CSS speaker, are most likely just you hearing the shortcomings of the design, as others already pointed out 🙂
As a 72 year old man, the chances of you being able to hear anything at 15 kHz are extremely small. My hf hearing drops off around 10-11 kHz nowadays, and I'm 63. (And that's pretty normal for a male my age.)
Mmmh...about preamplifier & analog & DSP not DSP, I would link to my latest blog. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/my-new-dome-in-waveguide.425989/#post-7976730
... which btw was my old dream when entering in audio.
Once accostumed to the gaty ( sic) sound of an analog switch ( orthopathy, you know, dislessic and the path...?!) you'll enjoy the facility of a remote control.
Not to say that my original intention was to elaborate some kind of speakers...
... which btw was my old dream when entering in audio.
Once accostumed to the gaty ( sic) sound of an analog switch ( orthopathy, you know, dislessic and the path...?!) you'll enjoy the facility of a remote control.
Not to say that my original intention was to elaborate some kind of speakers...
I;m 70 and my hearing doesn't extend above 10k. As others have said, it is the 5-10k range which can make music sound unpleasant. Also speakers need to be run in for many hours and often then become more mellow.
I don't know if it's on-topic, but I believe something that I absolutely can't prove, and that is that even if the audiogram says one doesn't hear anything above 10Khz, the fact that those frequencies are there or not in the music reproduction matters.
I mean that even if one doesn't hear them, they will still do their positive and useful part in reproducing the musical message for the listener.
Just my 2 cents...
I mean that even if one doesn't hear them, they will still do their positive and useful part in reproducing the musical message for the listener.
Just my 2 cents...
You are a victim of many years "I have heard..." and "Billy who knows, told me". Please, even as being an old dog, try learning some new tricks (facts).
Your sound will not improve at all, using a pre-amp, in fact, objectively, it will degrade a little bit, even as it may not be audible.
So please, don't spend 500$ on this and please, please, forget about killing the heights in your audio.
Cables: If you spend 20$ on your speaker cables and the same for each of the CD/ phono to amp connections, you have 100% of what you can get. Cables are the big rip off in audio and anyone telling you his wires are better is a bloody liar. In retail stores, they may only have 20% on an amp or even speaker on sale, but make 250% and more on cables. No exception, sorry. Please look for budget price cables, like Amazon basic or the like in this forum. They give you high end sound for low end prices.
The speakers you choose, if you assembeled them right, are just fine. In fact very good. Please consider to check this again. A tweeter or woofer connected the wrong way will degrade sound and make them ugly to listen to.
Last, there is the question to what kind of audio reference you are used to. If you heard with a reduced frequency band for years, it may take many hours of listening to get right what your hearing has learned wrong. Like only listening to a cheap car radio or BOSE kitchen radio. Any time you listen to the "wrong sound" again, you may reset your hearing to this faulty response curve. What you heard about "burn in" is to 99% this learning of your hearing.
Your sound will not improve at all, using a pre-amp, in fact, objectively, it will degrade a little bit, even as it may not be audible.
So please, don't spend 500$ on this and please, please, forget about killing the heights in your audio.
Cables: If you spend 20$ on your speaker cables and the same for each of the CD/ phono to amp connections, you have 100% of what you can get. Cables are the big rip off in audio and anyone telling you his wires are better is a bloody liar. In retail stores, they may only have 20% on an amp or even speaker on sale, but make 250% and more on cables. No exception, sorry. Please look for budget price cables, like Amazon basic or the like in this forum. They give you high end sound for low end prices.
The speakers you choose, if you assembeled them right, are just fine. In fact very good. Please consider to check this again. A tweeter or woofer connected the wrong way will degrade sound and make them ugly to listen to.
Last, there is the question to what kind of audio reference you are used to. If you heard with a reduced frequency band for years, it may take many hours of listening to get right what your hearing has learned wrong. Like only listening to a cheap car radio or BOSE kitchen radio. Any time you listen to the "wrong sound" again, you may reset your hearing to this faulty response curve. What you heard about "burn in" is to 99% this learning of your hearing.
I agree to some extent, but as hearing is essentially a mechanical process, I think the mechanism simply becomes 'tired' a bit like the springs and dampers on an old car. So if very high frequencies don't/can't provide a physical response, I can't see how the brain is going to receive the appropriate impulses.
I'm not aware of any other route for sound in this band to ellicit a response.