I have been looking at various driver options for a straight forward 2-way design with a reasonable driver cost.
This will be a first time prototype for me, so I'll be using an active crossover to learn about the drivers and the crossover configurations.
Ideally, both drivers would be matched as closely as possible in terms of sensitivity, in order to reduce the amount of gain manipulation needed in the DSP.
Targeting a frequency response of ~150Hz or so to 20kHz. The lower end will be handled separately by a dedicated subwoofer.
Currently looking at the following driver options:
Tweeter: Dayton RST28F-4 (Don't particularly like the resonance starting at 2kHz to 2.5kHz as per spec)
Mid-range: Dayton RS100P4 or Dayton SIG180-4 (Higher sensitivity, but don't particularly like the impedance oscillations between 50Hz and 150Hz and the resonance at ~420Hz as per spec)
I'd appreciate any advice and suggestions, especially for driver combinations, thank you all.
This will be a first time prototype for me, so I'll be using an active crossover to learn about the drivers and the crossover configurations.
Ideally, both drivers would be matched as closely as possible in terms of sensitivity, in order to reduce the amount of gain manipulation needed in the DSP.
Targeting a frequency response of ~150Hz or so to 20kHz. The lower end will be handled separately by a dedicated subwoofer.
Currently looking at the following driver options:
Tweeter: Dayton RST28F-4 (Don't particularly like the resonance starting at 2kHz to 2.5kHz as per spec)
Mid-range: Dayton RS100P4 or Dayton SIG180-4 (Higher sensitivity, but don't particularly like the impedance oscillations between 50Hz and 150Hz and the resonance at ~420Hz as per spec)
I'd appreciate any advice and suggestions, especially for driver combinations, thank you all.
If you can get this, I think it's excellent.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-830991-5-1-4-GFC-Cone-HDS-Woofer-264-1074?quantity=504
For a tweeter, I'd suggest this one. I've not used it though.
https://www.parts-express.com/Morel-CAT-378-1-1-8-Soft-Dome-Horn-Tweeter-277-084?quantity=1
A lot may depend on the box design you choose.
https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-830991-5-1-4-GFC-Cone-HDS-Woofer-264-1074?quantity=504
For a tweeter, I'd suggest this one. I've not used it though.
https://www.parts-express.com/Morel-CAT-378-1-1-8-Soft-Dome-Horn-Tweeter-277-084?quantity=1
A lot may depend on the box design you choose.
That 5.25" HDS-P830991 looks interesting, but its directivity is not as good past 2kHz, hence I'd prefer the smaller 4" Dayton RS100P4 which keeps very good directivity until 4kHz.
It's been a while since I looked, but I believe the speaker 45 off axis was still plus or minus 2dB through the x-over region.
If you look at the surface area of the 4" Dayton you will see that at 35 cm^2 it is closer to what other manufacturers would call a 3" driver rather than a 4" with a surface area of 50 cm^2 or so. The Dayton 5" drivers have a surface area of 53 cm^2 or so and hence are closer to what other manufacturers would tend to label a 4". Don't know why Dayton label their drivers in this way.
A reasonable quality 2 way with sub support for use in a room rather than as a desktop/computer speaker would typically have a 6.5" midwoofer with a surface area more like 135 cm^2 than 35 cm^2. The reason this amount of surface area is required is in order to start getting close to cleanly reproducing percussive sounds at frequencies around the crossover to the sub at typical levels for listening to music in the foreground at home. If one only listens at quieter levels then a 5" midwoofer might be sufficient particularly if the sub is placed halfway between the speakers and the crossover raised in frequency to 100-120 Hz.
High quality speakers seek a smooth controlled sound radiation pattern ideally down to 80 Hz when handing over to a sub system. At low frequencies this usually involves using cancellation from multiple sources (e.g. cardioid, dipole, slots) and obviously isn't directly relevant to what you are proposing. But considering a wide radiation pattern past 2 kHz to be a desirable feature rather than an undesirable one is perhaps relevant.
In Europe Dayton drivers tend to be less good value compared to the US but they are still worth considering as are other manufacturers but first I would suggest getting on top of whether you really want a 3" full range driver and tweeter crossed at 150 Hz to a subwoofer. To me it doesn't look a reasonable place to start because of the inevitable lowish technical performance due to the laws of physics. Nonetheless it might be what you want to do. Indeed there is a sister forum to this one for enthusiasts of 3" full range drivers without tweeters or subwoofers.
A reasonable quality 2 way with sub support for use in a room rather than as a desktop/computer speaker would typically have a 6.5" midwoofer with a surface area more like 135 cm^2 than 35 cm^2. The reason this amount of surface area is required is in order to start getting close to cleanly reproducing percussive sounds at frequencies around the crossover to the sub at typical levels for listening to music in the foreground at home. If one only listens at quieter levels then a 5" midwoofer might be sufficient particularly if the sub is placed halfway between the speakers and the crossover raised in frequency to 100-120 Hz.
High quality speakers seek a smooth controlled sound radiation pattern ideally down to 80 Hz when handing over to a sub system. At low frequencies this usually involves using cancellation from multiple sources (e.g. cardioid, dipole, slots) and obviously isn't directly relevant to what you are proposing. But considering a wide radiation pattern past 2 kHz to be a desirable feature rather than an undesirable one is perhaps relevant.
In Europe Dayton drivers tend to be less good value compared to the US but they are still worth considering as are other manufacturers but first I would suggest getting on top of whether you really want a 3" full range driver and tweeter crossed at 150 Hz to a subwoofer. To me it doesn't look a reasonable place to start because of the inevitable lowish technical performance due to the laws of physics. Nonetheless it might be what you want to do. Indeed there is a sister forum to this one for enthusiasts of 3" full range drivers without tweeters or subwoofers.
Dayton measures its mids and woofers from the external diameter of the flange, so the driver area is less than you think; for example, my RS180Ps '7 inch' are really 6" woofers. IIRC, their cone area is lower than the Peerless 6" woofers.
Depending on budget, you could look at the SB Acoustics SB13 or SB16, for which there are several nice two way passive designs. If you can get them, the Peerless DA25 or Vifa DX25 series tweeters sound nice and should pair well with the SBs. The CAT378 is really good but is expensive and you would been to pad it down more than the Peerless or Vifa.
Geoff
Depending on budget, you could look at the SB Acoustics SB13 or SB16, for which there are several nice two way passive designs. If you can get them, the Peerless DA25 or Vifa DX25 series tweeters sound nice and should pair well with the SBs. The CAT378 is really good but is expensive and you would been to pad it down more than the Peerless or Vifa.
Geoff
Thanks, I hadn't noticed that. The specifications quote 36.3 cm² for the 4" Dayton, which represents a diaphragm diameter of about 2.67" - quite the difference from a quoted 4".
What is your definition of typical levels? With the sub I have, and the use of an active crossover, crossing at up to 150Hz with the midrange would be possible.
My goal is not to run the Dayton RS100P4 full range, but rather just for mid range (albeit quite low), but thanks for the suggestion.
Crossing at 150 Hz to a sub would mean the sound from the sub would be obvious and wreck the stereo imaging. Crossing at such a frequency to a sub might be reasonable for budget consumer audio sub-satellite systems with very small satellites where a low level of sound quality typical of a TV/radio is acceptable. If one is considering taking the time and effort to design and make a speaker system it would be unusal for such a low level of sound quality to be an objective. But it is a hobby and people build speakers with all sorts of different objectives.
My definition of typical levels of listening to music in the foreground in the home is typical levels of listening to music in the foreground in the home. What is perhaps more relevant is at what levels you would want your speakers to have low levels of perceived distortion when reproducing percussive sounds at lowish frequencies.
For example, clean reproduction of well recorded music (using a 20 dB peak/average overhead) at cinema levels (80-85 dB average) at 3-4m requires the main speakers to have something like 10-12" woofers with a system of several subs with similar sized drivers.
Many home hi-fi systems are a lot smaller than this and a fair amount of modern recorded musics has a significantly compressed dynamic range. Systems that are small and suppress the transients in music tend to sound louder and less pleasant than ones that don't triggering the user to want to turn the volume down a bit. Room boom in acoustically modest rooms also has a similar effect.
The net result is a sub-satellite system with 5" midwoofer plus 1" tweeter satellites and 10" sub, with modern recorded music, listening at 10 dB or so less than cinema levels, at 2m, with a bit of compression and room boom can be sufficiently above TV levels of sound quality to be well worthwhile. A 6.5" midwoofer is a more optimum size for a 2 way but can be a bit too large for some room setups. Dropping below a 5" midwoofer for mains in a room rather than a desktop is moving towards TV levels of sound quality. Again, this may be fine depending on ones objectives.
It wouldn't if the sub was on the centreline. I've crossed over 1kHz with little concern.
Yes this is the best one can do if the satellite speakers are too small to function as stereo mains. Listening in full mono may be preferable though to having some parts of a note coming from one location and the rest from another even if both are in front. I guess it will depend how much it intrudes on ones enjoyment of music. Likewise compressed percussive sounds which some find intrusive whereas others less so.
The smaller Dayton RS range are small Sd because of the fixed phase plug and as andy said above not a true 4" driver 102mm Vs actual 98mm overall .
Dont expect it to get loud unless you cut the low midbass out substantially, they'd make a great midrange in a small 3way, Im currently planning a 3way+ active sub with them now rs225-4 rs100p-4 tweeter still undetermined thinking the ND25FW-4 for sub duties a downfiring UM8-22(1 in each tower)
Dont expect it to get loud unless you cut the low midbass out substantially, they'd make a great midrange in a small 3way, Im currently planning a 3way+ active sub with them now rs225-4 rs100p-4 tweeter still undetermined thinking the ND25FW-4 for sub duties a downfiring UM8-22(1 in each tower)
Just want to point out that the "small" size of the Dayton drivers really only applies to the Reference series. The Signature series are actually the opposite, a little larger Sd than other typical drivers with the same nominal width.
There is a big difference between the RS100 (probably too small) and SIG180 (probably too big). Consider the RS125 or RS150 and compare to the SIG120 OR SIG150.
There is a big difference between the RS100 (probably too small) and SIG180 (probably too big). Consider the RS125 or RS150 and compare to the SIG120 OR SIG150.