Hi all,
So i im a bit curious about something,
I have a pair of sonos fives in stereo and i thought i had them dialed in pretty good for imaging...
I get a solid centre for vocals and i thought when playing music which has quite a wide sound that it sounded suitably wide and detailed.
Anyway i decided to have a play with another set of speakers that i was getting ready to sell (a rather beat up pair of wharfdale diamond 7.1 which are not considered to be that good, i had them running on my homebuilt valve amp which is about 30w pch and in the same position as where the sonos fives would be.
Playing the same songs i often listen to and im stunned by an almost holographic ultrawide soundstage and detail but i didnt seem to have a defined centre, so i tried different angles and such and the sweet spot was pretty much where i had them.
So whats going on, surely they either image or they dont but this seems to be a contradiction i had i wide soundstage with spread out instruments but the vocal centre was ill defined, but wow did the rest sound nice. They are rather limited on bass but i wouldnt complain for what i was listening to.
Now switch to sonos and the vocal centre is locked on solid with full body to the sound ie tonal balance however doesnt sound anywhere near as wide unless the track is recorded wide and then it springs to life, so which is correct?
Are the diamonds giving me artificially wide soundstage and the sonos are more realistic or are the sonos too narrow.
So i im a bit curious about something,
I have a pair of sonos fives in stereo and i thought i had them dialed in pretty good for imaging...
I get a solid centre for vocals and i thought when playing music which has quite a wide sound that it sounded suitably wide and detailed.
Anyway i decided to have a play with another set of speakers that i was getting ready to sell (a rather beat up pair of wharfdale diamond 7.1 which are not considered to be that good, i had them running on my homebuilt valve amp which is about 30w pch and in the same position as where the sonos fives would be.
Playing the same songs i often listen to and im stunned by an almost holographic ultrawide soundstage and detail but i didnt seem to have a defined centre, so i tried different angles and such and the sweet spot was pretty much where i had them.
So whats going on, surely they either image or they dont but this seems to be a contradiction i had i wide soundstage with spread out instruments but the vocal centre was ill defined, but wow did the rest sound nice. They are rather limited on bass but i wouldnt complain for what i was listening to.
Now switch to sonos and the vocal centre is locked on solid with full body to the sound ie tonal balance however doesnt sound anywhere near as wide unless the track is recorded wide and then it springs to life, so which is correct?
Are the diamonds giving me artificially wide soundstage and the sonos are more realistic or are the sonos too narrow.
Hi, the center should be solid. Perhaps one of the wharfdales was accidentally hooked with inverted polarity. This makes "huge" sound but no center.
These are normal differences.
Every speaker has its own characteristics, always has.
The only thing the listener can do is choose the one he likes best.
But in this practice, the audio setup takes on great importance, because every component of the audio chain depends on all the others.
This means that with one amplifier you may prefer the Sonos, and with another amplifier perhaps you will like the Wharfedale more.
Or by changing the preamplifier or the source.
Of course the environment is fundamental for the choice of speakers.
Ah thanks, the speakers were definately wired correct but the source was an android phone via the usb C headphone adaptor so maybe the phone is doing something wierd,
Interestingly i was picking up gsm noise on one channel but not the other, i wonder if they fudged the wiring in the adaptor and got the ground switched.
Not sure how i could ever find out though.
Interestingly i was picking up gsm noise on one channel but not the other, i wonder if they fudged the wiring in the adaptor and got the ground switched.
Not sure how i could ever find out though.
Thanks, yes i would like to try more speakers and amps but am limited on space etc however i have been suprised because i took the sonos to a family members house to try in their large livingroom and it sounded awfull in there, the bass was boomy and had no extension or detail but the imaging did sound wider and yet on my houseboat with a very small room (about 9ft x 12 ft) they sound very nice with really tight bass.
But the boat is very well damped with heavy insulation and thick carpets.
The large room at the house has a wooden floor and minimal soft furnishings.
I do really like having a good imaging but am really limited to amped speakers because there isnt enough space to have my valve amp set up all the time.
The kef amped bookshelf speakers have caught my eye lately but i am not sure if they would be any better for me because i like deep bass and the sonos delivers and being a sealed enclosure it doesnt interact much being all the way back on a dresser up against the wall.
Most of the sonos five review criticisms dont seem to effect my setup but after hearing them in a large room i can fully understand where the forward boomy bass statements come from, its amazing how different they sound in my environment, they are really tight.
The diamonds sounded very similar in both environments but i think largely because they dont go deep enough to excite the room modes in the large room, i also noticed some mild boominess from being ported near the wall.
The kef bookshelf speakers seem to get very good reviews for imaging but their specified bass response is pretty poor, im used to the almost full range of the fives which go down to a about 25hz, on other speakers i notice the roll off too much with my music the bass just hits a brick wall and i hate that effect, i would need a very slow roll off if i was to be happy with limited bass response.
I also have the sonos sub mini which i have tried to see if offloading the bass frees up the main drivers to have more wider imaging but the sonos sub mini doesnt seem to have the detailed bass that the fives themselves have, it also doesnt go as deep so seems to be a bit of a downgrade so i rarely use it unless i want to play very loud.
The sonos fives and the wharfedales have totally different sounds though, the sonos has a very tame un-offending tonality with the treble being of that modern shimmering type.
The wharfedales have a very spacious and open sound but the treble seems to sound a little harsh at times, they needed to be very carefully dialled in with the bass and treble controls otherwise they seem to end up with the treble becoming a seperate entity from the bass, i dont know what the technical name for it is but any "sshhhh" type sounds in vocals can end up sounding harsh.
The sonos in comparison has none of this and everything sounds very correct if a little one dimensional.
Sorry for the long waffle but i was leading to ask which one is actually the goal of most audiophiles, is it the airy spaciousness or the less offending more studio like sound?
I have been listening to various speakers over the years and most of the ones i have tried didnt seem that good to my ears, the bowers and wilkins 684 towers and the same range of bookshelfs sounded very bassless had airy upper treble but not much midrange imaging.
They were powered by a rega Mira amp.
I had some cambridge audio speakers (towers) which were the worst of this list, they had this extreme allergy to certain female vocals which resulted in an extreme "shhhh" type sound (much worse than wharfedale).
So far the sonos seems to be the closest to what i believe is the goal.
I heard some imf electronic compact 2s and some mardaunt short bookshelfs of a similar period on a very expensive amp and they did sound very wide and detailed (the best so far) but not easy to find in good condition.
with all the seemingly biased reviews from the likes of whathifi (none of their 5 star speakers sounded amazing to me)
Im not sure where i should look for this sound.
Hopefully i have given enough detail to get some recommendations.
-small
-internal amp
- good bass extension
- spacious imaging
Or am i asking too much from small speakers?
Yeah result of no center could be many reasons, but combined with huge sound stage sounds like description of wrong polarity on one of the speakers. It could also be that the speakers differed from each other that the phantom center is vague, but the room sound shouldn't be anything spectacular either I think.
Anyway, proper system gives nice solid center so, it was something not so proper, either the adapter, something wrong with the speakers, something else, multiple things combined.
I'm not sure if any properly working amp should do anything like that, at least never heard such a big difference. Perhaps if there is some switches and pots in poor condition making L / R output differ so much phantom center gets ruined. Phantom center happens as long as L / R are closely the same.
edit. aha, your amp has bass and treble controls, if those do not track well between L/R it'll ruin the phantom image.
Anyway, proper system gives nice solid center so, it was something not so proper, either the adapter, something wrong with the speakers, something else, multiple things combined.
I'm not sure if any properly working amp should do anything like that, at least never heard such a big difference. Perhaps if there is some switches and pots in poor condition making L / R output differ so much phantom center gets ruined. Phantom center happens as long as L / R are closely the same.
edit. aha, your amp has bass and treble controls, if those do not track well between L/R it'll ruin the phantom image.
Ah ok thanks, the amp is getting on for 25 years old now, i build it when i was 15 im now 40, but it is well maintained it had new valves and a recap about 5 years ago.
It was built to plans using ordered pcb and sockets/transformers etc so as far as im aware there shouldnt be anything off unless the plans had an error.
The bass and treble are with stereo pots so they should be the same, i didnt hear and large variation between the two.
I will try another source and see what happens its peaked my curiousity now.
Will report back what I find.
It was built to plans using ordered pcb and sockets/transformers etc so as far as im aware there shouldnt be anything off unless the plans had an error.
The bass and treble are with stereo pots so they should be the same, i didnt hear and large variation between the two.
I will try another source and see what happens its peaked my curiousity now.
Will report back what I find.
You were on the money, its something in the line out path of the phone, either the cable or internal circuit.
Using a wireless headphone amp the issue is gone, it still sounds wide though compared to the sonos but the centre is locked in now.
Thanks for that, i dont think i ever would have considered that samsung cant wire a lead properly on a flagship phone, thats an eye opener for sure.
Now i have i dilemma because these supposedly poor sounding wharfedale 7.1s from the so called period of (they lost their way) seem to sound better than the sonos fives.
But the fives have beaten supposedly better speakers before....
Think i will hold off selling these for a while now, i was going to sell them to a guy who im repairing a 1960s vinyl jukebox for because they would probably be fine for that with a ceramic cartridge, but they seem to be better than i thought...
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Cool, glad it resolved! Todays computers and phones likely add all sorts of "enhancements" by default, you could check if sound setting have something regarding this. If not, it's a bad cable.
Same for speakers, box store speakers likely have 3" driver and DSP + amp chip, of course LEDs, and very colorful marketing material that try and convince people that the small speaker makes good sound. While modern small speakers certainly can make nice sound, marketing department can't cheat on physics and for example bass with bigger bass driver likely sounds way better. Bass makes also into stereo perception and how everything works in a room. A good set of speakers set up well would blow peoples mind today, everyone is so used to the small bluetooth speakers and soundbars good stereo sound is rare.
Same for speakers, box store speakers likely have 3" driver and DSP + amp chip, of course LEDs, and very colorful marketing material that try and convince people that the small speaker makes good sound. While modern small speakers certainly can make nice sound, marketing department can't cheat on physics and for example bass with bigger bass driver likely sounds way better. Bass makes also into stereo perception and how everything works in a room. A good set of speakers set up well would blow peoples mind today, everyone is so used to the small bluetooth speakers and soundbars good stereo sound is rare.
You had mentioned that the alternate speaker pair were wired correctly connected in matched phase. As an experiment, reverse the polarity of the wires going to one speaker of that pair. Listen to hear whether the center is much more solid that way. If it is, one speaker that pair may have been inadvertently wired in reverse polarity at the factory.
Yes i agree, i have never been much interested in bluetooth all in one boxes for serious listening, usually the bass has a very artificial cut rather than a roll off and virtually no imaging.
The sonos fives are an exception to my ears atleast, they are class D bi amped and they do use dsp however they have six drivers in each speaker in a sealed enclosure, and they use very powerfull amps with one for each driver.
The drivers themselves are custom and not off the shelf it seems they took the approach of choosing box and then designing the drivers to make it work, although backwards by the usuall standards i think they punch very well in their sonic abilities.
They dont sound amazing when used as a single stereo speaker but when set up as a stereo pair they change dsp profiles to be a standard left/right and i think this is where the reviews have been misleading because they always test them as a single speaker and not as a stereo pair as intended.
I sold a hifi with bowers and wilkins 684s, rega mira amp and also a yamaha natural sound dsp amp because to me the sonos Fives sounded much more realistic, it was night and day difference.
It wasnt a spur descision either i spent months comparing with the mindedness to sell them if i wasnt happy.
I think some reasons why i maybe getting these results with the sonos, i have a very small space which is very well damped so the sonos dont need to work hard to fill it, im also sitting much closer so maybe they work better this way.
To me the drivers sound seamless and i really like the detail and quality of the sound.
Im not the best at using terms to describe these things but they are a pleasure to listen to.
The soundstage is very open and detailed and more revealing than people might imagine, i dont know how the 684s rank amongst the experienced but i really didnt rate them for the money.
I know theres better out there than sonos but i dont think many people with entry level equipment would be dissapointed with sonos, most of the speakers i had were over 1k new with the exception of the wharfedales which were free and the only one that i think is a ? Vs sonos is the wharfedales.
Would be nice to hear a review from someone who has set them up in stereo and actually knows what the strangely named settings do.
I know for a fact that whathifi had the true play and extra tweeters enabled in their review, those are only for wide stereo when used as a single box, clearly they didnt read the manual, when stood vertically they have the extra tweeters turned off, horizontal is for use as a single box, yet all the reviews i have seen have them horizontal which would give a very strange effect because i have tried it the way they did and it sounded pretty much how they described.
Anyway back to my AB testing i am trying to figure out which one is really the better but i think i may be stuck as they both have nice elements in their own way perhapse equalls.
Has anyone heard the kef amplified bookshelfs with the fancy single driver i really want to know what they sound like?
The wharfedales sound more "wide" as previously stated but detail wise im not sure theres much in it, the wharfedales have a very different sound signature, more open but at the same time quite edgy on certain music, rock sounds quite fatiguing on the wharfedales as it did on the 684s but sonos is an easy listen with pretty much anything
The sonos fives are an exception to my ears atleast, they are class D bi amped and they do use dsp however they have six drivers in each speaker in a sealed enclosure, and they use very powerfull amps with one for each driver.
The drivers themselves are custom and not off the shelf it seems they took the approach of choosing box and then designing the drivers to make it work, although backwards by the usuall standards i think they punch very well in their sonic abilities.
They dont sound amazing when used as a single stereo speaker but when set up as a stereo pair they change dsp profiles to be a standard left/right and i think this is where the reviews have been misleading because they always test them as a single speaker and not as a stereo pair as intended.
I sold a hifi with bowers and wilkins 684s, rega mira amp and also a yamaha natural sound dsp amp because to me the sonos Fives sounded much more realistic, it was night and day difference.
It wasnt a spur descision either i spent months comparing with the mindedness to sell them if i wasnt happy.
I think some reasons why i maybe getting these results with the sonos, i have a very small space which is very well damped so the sonos dont need to work hard to fill it, im also sitting much closer so maybe they work better this way.
To me the drivers sound seamless and i really like the detail and quality of the sound.
Im not the best at using terms to describe these things but they are a pleasure to listen to.
The soundstage is very open and detailed and more revealing than people might imagine, i dont know how the 684s rank amongst the experienced but i really didnt rate them for the money.
I know theres better out there than sonos but i dont think many people with entry level equipment would be dissapointed with sonos, most of the speakers i had were over 1k new with the exception of the wharfedales which were free and the only one that i think is a ? Vs sonos is the wharfedales.
Would be nice to hear a review from someone who has set them up in stereo and actually knows what the strangely named settings do.
I know for a fact that whathifi had the true play and extra tweeters enabled in their review, those are only for wide stereo when used as a single box, clearly they didnt read the manual, when stood vertically they have the extra tweeters turned off, horizontal is for use as a single box, yet all the reviews i have seen have them horizontal which would give a very strange effect because i have tried it the way they did and it sounded pretty much how they described.
Anyway back to my AB testing i am trying to figure out which one is really the better but i think i may be stuck as they both have nice elements in their own way perhapse equalls.
Has anyone heard the kef amplified bookshelfs with the fancy single driver i really want to know what they sound like?
The wharfedales sound more "wide" as previously stated but detail wise im not sure theres much in it, the wharfedales have a very different sound signature, more open but at the same time quite edgy on certain music, rock sounds quite fatiguing on the wharfedales as it did on the 684s but sonos is an easy listen with pretty much anything
Thanks, i now know that the audio usb C to 3.5mm adaptor (made by samsung) appears to be wired wrong.
The sonos (wifi) is fine, and the wharfedale using valve amp connected to android phone 3.5mm adaptor playing the same source (spotify highest quality setting) was the wierd one, so i swapped 3.5mm adaptor to wireless headphone amp into valve amp and that solved it so it must have been the adaptor or phone socket but i have no other adaptors to confirm which.