Been diving on the forums for several months, and have built a 2-way I love, which I should really make a post about, but it was for my bedroom to wake up to, so so many things didn't apply.
What I'd like to build next is a 3-way speaker pair for a small library, for two people seated a meter or two apart while reading, with great musicality, not to be played very loud. So much of what I find here is optimized for the listening position. Monkey coffins sound okay to me, but space is a bit of a premium. Would like to build a moderately sized floor or pole stander of 50-75l. I'm not asking for driver advice, but just be pointed in the general direction of enclosures/designs that are aimed at this listening case instead of playing at standard or higher levels.
I prefer sealed woofers to ported (though I did build an under-bed ported sub for the bedroom, again because I wasn't particularly high in there), and am aiming at a pair of speakers without a sub.
Please berate me as to the threads I haven't dug up.
What I'd like to build next is a 3-way speaker pair for a small library, for two people seated a meter or two apart while reading, with great musicality, not to be played very loud. So much of what I find here is optimized for the listening position. Monkey coffins sound okay to me, but space is a bit of a premium. Would like to build a moderately sized floor or pole stander of 50-75l. I'm not asking for driver advice, but just be pointed in the general direction of enclosures/designs that are aimed at this listening case instead of playing at standard or higher levels.
I prefer sealed woofers to ported (though I did build an under-bed ported sub for the bedroom, again because I wasn't particularly high in there), and am aiming at a pair of speakers without a sub.
Please berate me as to the threads I haven't dug up.
Should add listening distance would be 2-3m. Lots of bookshelves that I hope will be good acoustic treatment. Leaning towards active + dsp so that could be an option for overcoming some design limitations.
A system built on a waveguided tweeter crossed in front of the listening position can be used to widen the sweet spot without damaging imaging.
I would consider the option of a ported speaker tuned around +/- 25Hz or a bit below.
You'll get a very good result with volumes between 50 and 75 liters and no sub-woofer is needed.
Compare the simulation between sealed and ported tuned low (FR, SPL, cone excursion and group delay).
Most of cases where people don't like ported speakers are related to tuning at frequencies higher than 30Hz, so within the normal audio fundamental frequencies. Bad ported reputation also comes from improper tuning frequency which leads to an acoustic gain rather than making the FR curve flat - result is boomy sound.
Once you define your speaker targets, post here, if you want, and we can comment on simulation.
For a 3-way, since you don't need to cross low to high, but low to mid and then mid to high, I'd use what is comercially classified as "subwoofer" rather than a "woofer". Anyways, it's a gray zone. What matters are T/S parameters of the speaker.
That's what I've been observing in my actual speaker results between 40 and 80 liters with 8" or 10" subwoofers.
Two of these or similar modded with full range driver in each side wing. Put a subwoofer in between with a top that’s isolated from vibration……..done.
Mayhem, asymptonic, It's very hard to concentrate on reading if speakers are very close to listener as brain makes great involuntary attention to the sound, reading is constantly interrupted by sounds. If its for background music the speakers should be far away enough to have enough early reflections to ruin brain ability to focus on the music, diffuse kinda sound. This is easy, put any speakers anywhere in the room, except close to you or pointing at you.
If the project goal was that the playback system needs cater both detailed listening where brain focus is on music, and reading background where focus is on the book, the system needs to be such and positioned so that both available within the room and state of concentration is changed by moving the listener, by moving chair or with third chair. Smooth power response and good lostening window, this can be two way speaker just as well, main issue is acoustic properties of the construct. Look for kimmosto posts / designed speakers for example.
If the project goal was that the playback system needs cater both detailed listening where brain focus is on music, and reading background where focus is on the book, the system needs to be such and positioned so that both available within the room and state of concentration is changed by moving the listener, by moving chair or with third chair. Smooth power response and good lostening window, this can be two way speaker just as well, main issue is acoustic properties of the construct. Look for kimmosto posts / designed speakers for example.
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Background listening and widely spaced listeners might be well served by a Carlsson-type speaker. These speakers seek to create a wider listening position by directing much of the sound away from the listener. In order to work well the speaker needs the reflected sound to have a reasonably flat frequency response which tends to raise the perceived level of the high frequencies but at low levels this is likely to sound better balanced. They tend to be low and fat in shape due to using reflections off the wall and floor in their design. They need to be placed on the floor and next to a wall.
If well designed in comparison with convertional direct radiating speakers they tend to create a more spacious sound with a wider listening area but with less well defined imaging and higher perceived level of high frequencies (correctable). Unfortunately I am not aware of a well sorted DIY design although there might be one or two around. Anyone?
If well designed in comparison with convertional direct radiating speakers they tend to create a more spacious sound with a wider listening area but with less well defined imaging and higher perceived level of high frequencies (correctable). Unfortunately I am not aware of a well sorted DIY design although there might be one or two around. Anyone?
A small coax midtop like the Kef LS50 with a ripole sub for the lowest octave would be what i think is best, imaging is good if teweeter and mid are aligned, and a ripole sub can create a low bas on low level very well, some lighter cone subwoofers can do the same, like the Scanspeak 26W8534G00 that i have, but when the cone is heavy you need a lot of force to get it moving on low frequency. Light cone subwoofers don' go loud (but that is not to goal).
If you don't want to do a coax, a waveguided tweeter and a smaller midbass in a sealed cabinet can come close if they are phase aligned over a wide band arround the crossover. That is hard to do with a passive crosover, but not impossible.
If you don't want to do a coax, a waveguided tweeter and a smaller midbass in a sealed cabinet can come close if they are phase aligned over a wide band arround the crossover. That is hard to do with a passive crosover, but not impossible.
waxx, I'll add perspective to your post:
phase alignment isn't necessary if it's strictly background music system optimized for reading books. Brain pays attention to sound when original harmonics are well preserved, so if one wants to pay attention to a book one should ruin the original harmonics of background music sound by masking it with early reflections or ruin it by bad crossover and other features of the speaker. On the other hand one likely wants nice power response for background listening, and want sometimes listen closer with proper attention, so perhaps ruin it just with the early reflections, by listening far away.
Here is simple test anyone with DSP system can do:
sit other side of room, far away from speakers, and listen one speaker mono and start increasing delay of tweeter or woofer with your DSP. I was astounded to notice sound didn't change much at all. Power response changes a bit every wavelength of delay, so perhaps you heard something, but it really didn't seem to make much difference until delay was beyond 10ms or so that the sound sources seemed separate. Contrary, if listening very close to speakers so that early reflections reduce compared to direct sound and brain finally pays attention to the direct sound, the original harmonics, then you can perceive quite gradual changes in the phase/time alignment.
There is another aspect to this, while sound might not change audibly but feel of the sound can change: impactful sound with tactile feel requires nice time and phase, small group delay. This aspect seems to work also listening further away and is not automatic, needs some attention and work and adjustments to make happen. This ain't necessary for background system either.
So, although it's always good to strive for as good as possible sound, like minute time and phase alignment, sometimes in some use case it could be just unnecessary work and expense. This is important stuff to everyone test themselves, perhaps someone is really sensitive to this, perhaps someone else isn't, so take it just as perspective. However, it's important to remember that even if it was an ideal sound source phase info of original sound it reproduces is affected with too much listening distance = amount of room sound over direct sound so that auditory system just cannot lock in to the direct sound.
phase alignment isn't necessary if it's strictly background music system optimized for reading books. Brain pays attention to sound when original harmonics are well preserved, so if one wants to pay attention to a book one should ruin the original harmonics of background music sound by masking it with early reflections or ruin it by bad crossover and other features of the speaker. On the other hand one likely wants nice power response for background listening, and want sometimes listen closer with proper attention, so perhaps ruin it just with the early reflections, by listening far away.
Here is simple test anyone with DSP system can do:
sit other side of room, far away from speakers, and listen one speaker mono and start increasing delay of tweeter or woofer with your DSP. I was astounded to notice sound didn't change much at all. Power response changes a bit every wavelength of delay, so perhaps you heard something, but it really didn't seem to make much difference until delay was beyond 10ms or so that the sound sources seemed separate. Contrary, if listening very close to speakers so that early reflections reduce compared to direct sound and brain finally pays attention to the direct sound, the original harmonics, then you can perceive quite gradual changes in the phase/time alignment.
There is another aspect to this, while sound might not change audibly but feel of the sound can change: impactful sound with tactile feel requires nice time and phase, small group delay. This aspect seems to work also listening further away and is not automatic, needs some attention and work and adjustments to make happen. This ain't necessary for background system either.
So, although it's always good to strive for as good as possible sound, like minute time and phase alignment, sometimes in some use case it could be just unnecessary work and expense. This is important stuff to everyone test themselves, perhaps someone is really sensitive to this, perhaps someone else isn't, so take it just as perspective. However, it's important to remember that even if it was an ideal sound source phase info of original sound it reproduces is affected with too much listening distance = amount of room sound over direct sound so that auditory system just cannot lock in to the direct sound.
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Because the SPL is low, the reflections tend to drop below an audible level. I would choose a wide (180 or 360 degrees) dispersion speaker to counter this effect, in an attempt to still get some feeling of spaciousness.
Waveguides and coaxes usually have a narrower dispersion of 80 - 120 degrees at high frequencies.
Waveguides and coaxes usually have a narrower dispersion of 80 - 120 degrees at high frequencies.
No. This is said so many times but it's not true. This would only happen if the speaker is not properly designed for the room.
AllenB, yeah, even if speaker was correctly designed it could be poorly positioned. That's why I wrote too much listening distance.
You could have your speakers positioned so that there is never good listening distance, brain never pays attention to stereo phantom image and it remains hazy. Or, you could position speakers so that brain can pay attention listened from relatively far away, as far away as possible. It's all about auditory system ability to pay attention to the direct sound (phantom center), when it can it will and makes involuntary attention to sound and perceptually better detail.
What is too much listening distance depends on directivity of speaker, acoustics of the room and positioning, and which sound you want to perceive! Perhaps some differences are also personal although we have common recipe for auditory system through evolution. There definitely is differences whether anyone pays attention to this phenomenon, it's working all the time all day long in every day lives not just listening to stereo, a survival mechanism, sounds that are near are important and need to stick above all noise constantly around us.
What is too much to you in your room with your speakers is quite easy to determine by listening yourself:
stereo system phantom center sound turns from well localized and focused to hazy and diffuse one as you increase listening distance. The distance where sound is diffuse and hazy to you is the too much. Here your auditory system doesn't pay attention so it's nice for reading for example. If you want to listen carefully, get bit closer to speakers where there is perceptually nice focus and detail, close enough. It's your responsibility to arrange your speakers and acoustics so that you have the sound you like at your practical listening spot. If you want brain pay attention, but cannot move your listening spot or speaker placement, then the speaker needs to be particular and acoustics worked so that it happens. I've found out I sometimes want the hazy sound, and sometimes the good focused sound, so I just move myself to suitable listening distance.
You could have your speakers positioned so that there is never good listening distance, brain never pays attention to stereo phantom image and it remains hazy. Or, you could position speakers so that brain can pay attention listened from relatively far away, as far away as possible. It's all about auditory system ability to pay attention to the direct sound (phantom center), when it can it will and makes involuntary attention to sound and perceptually better detail.
What is too much listening distance depends on directivity of speaker, acoustics of the room and positioning, and which sound you want to perceive! Perhaps some differences are also personal although we have common recipe for auditory system through evolution. There definitely is differences whether anyone pays attention to this phenomenon, it's working all the time all day long in every day lives not just listening to stereo, a survival mechanism, sounds that are near are important and need to stick above all noise constantly around us.
What is too much to you in your room with your speakers is quite easy to determine by listening yourself:
stereo system phantom center sound turns from well localized and focused to hazy and diffuse one as you increase listening distance. The distance where sound is diffuse and hazy to you is the too much. Here your auditory system doesn't pay attention so it's nice for reading for example. If you want to listen carefully, get bit closer to speakers where there is perceptually nice focus and detail, close enough. It's your responsibility to arrange your speakers and acoustics so that you have the sound you like at your practical listening spot. If you want brain pay attention, but cannot move your listening spot or speaker placement, then the speaker needs to be particular and acoustics worked so that it happens. I've found out I sometimes want the hazy sound, and sometimes the good focused sound, so I just move myself to suitable listening distance.
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It's not necessarily based on listening distance. There could be no distance "too far" when a system is properly designed. On the other hand, acquired speakers chosen incorrectly for a room might display the trait of increasing room involvement with distance.
Yeah, you can say it that way too. You can simplify it to design system so that listening spot is close enough and brain pays attention 😉 But this assumes person wants to have only attention. Looking at photos of domestic hifi setups, most people seem to prefer no attention, the diffuse big sound by early reflections. I can only speculate why this is, and from domestic hifi perspective. Perhaps very good listening rooms have it very nice. Personally I want to switch whenever I feel like so all I need there is transition available at some listening distance.
This stuff is hard to communicate over so my key point is that everyone should experiment with this, with your own perception in your own space so that you can optimize for yourself.
This stuff is hard to communicate over so my key point is that everyone should experiment with this, with your own perception in your own space so that you can optimize for yourself.
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Then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The question was whether it's possible to have clean sound at any distance, not whether it's coveted by consumers 😉
Sorry, I didn't understand you wanted to debate that. One could put system outside, or use headphones as well. I'm writing in context of the OP, system for library room, inafining it is something domestic size.
You were the one who said more distance gave more room involvement. I re-read your post and there's another thing I want to address..
Undesirable reflections force your attention and make it difficult to relax. This is listening fatigue.
I'm wasting my time here, got my point written on the first post already. Your posts gave different perspective on things which is good.
I agree with you that reflections can be distracting and fatigue causing if you try to force focus on the music. However, for background music where intention is not to specifically concentrate listening on the sound the reflections help make the music just part of overall noise in the room and you can concentrate on other things like reading.
In case someone is having listening fatigue due to reflections my recommendation is to just get closer to speakers so that the reflection disappears from perception. Effectively this makes your own auditory system align with what you wanna perceive and fatigue caused by trying to force it is gone.
I agree with you that reflections can be distracting and fatigue causing if you try to force focus on the music. However, for background music where intention is not to specifically concentrate listening on the sound the reflections help make the music just part of overall noise in the room and you can concentrate on other things like reading.
In case someone is having listening fatigue due to reflections my recommendation is to just get closer to speakers so that the reflection disappears from perception. Effectively this makes your own auditory system align with what you wanna perceive and fatigue caused by trying to force it is gone.
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Wait a moment...I haven't read the latest posts because I was busy posting these two links
https://www.giussani-research.it/emissione-nps/?lang=en
And the result
https://www.giussani-research.it/nps-1000-insignis/?lang=en
https://www.giussani-research.it/emissione-nps/?lang=en
And the result
https://www.giussani-research.it/nps-1000-insignis/?lang=en