After chatting a little in a facebook group, plus GPT (lol), I switched the drivers all to Revelators. I assume this will keep the signature more similar. But also, I changed the drivers to 8", 4.5", and 1.1". So only the tweeter is the same. I'll try to update my OP to reflect this.
Depending on measurements, I'm aiming to cross from woofer to mid at about 400Hz because that's outside of the critical vocal range, as far as I was able to learn in my research. Wise planning?
There are a lot of replies this morning! Here we go:
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I have built two sets of speakers before. A full-range (for PC), and a two-way. The full-range was Wolf's design. For the second one I think I selected a couple drivers, then better options were presented via the forum, and then I chose those and I did the measurements. After that someone helped me design the XO based on those measurements. I had used software to get what I thought was right, but he tweaked/fixed it. I'm happy with those speakers, I just want better.
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Thanks for the note on the 12v trigger! I'll look into that.
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Erik, thanks for the 3kHz suggestion! I switched all the drivers to Revelators, would you still suggest 3kHz?
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I don't want to spend a lot more than this much (revelators) unless the results justify it, but apart from that I'm not trying to save money. I worked solar sales last year, and this year I'm doing roofing as a storm chaser. With how much I'll earn in door-to-door sales, my time is worth more than these drivers, so I'd like to avoid building a second set later with better drivers.
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The Troels set that was linked is ported and I want sealed.
He has another set that's sealed and uses revelators, but it appears be designed for use as a standalone, without a sub., I have a pair of 18" subs already. So if I choose a smaller driver to handle the mids, I should get better sound quality than if I used the 7" all the way up to roughly 2.5kHz like he did, right?
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I would love suggestions for a better DSP, thanks!
Depending on measurements, I'm aiming to cross from woofer to mid at about 400Hz because that's outside of the critical vocal range, as far as I was able to learn in my research. Wise planning?
There are a lot of replies this morning! Here we go:
-------
I have built two sets of speakers before. A full-range (for PC), and a two-way. The full-range was Wolf's design. For the second one I think I selected a couple drivers, then better options were presented via the forum, and then I chose those and I did the measurements. After that someone helped me design the XO based on those measurements. I had used software to get what I thought was right, but he tweaked/fixed it. I'm happy with those speakers, I just want better.
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Thanks for the note on the 12v trigger! I'll look into that.
-------
Erik, thanks for the 3kHz suggestion! I switched all the drivers to Revelators, would you still suggest 3kHz?
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I don't want to spend a lot more than this much (revelators) unless the results justify it, but apart from that I'm not trying to save money. I worked solar sales last year, and this year I'm doing roofing as a storm chaser. With how much I'll earn in door-to-door sales, my time is worth more than these drivers, so I'd like to avoid building a second set later with better drivers.
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The Troels set that was linked is ported and I want sealed.
He has another set that's sealed and uses revelators, but it appears be designed for use as a standalone, without a sub., I have a pair of 18" subs already. So if I choose a smaller driver to handle the mids, I should get better sound quality than if I used the 7" all the way up to roughly 2.5kHz like he did, right?
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I would love suggestions for a better DSP, thanks!
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Side note, after a suggestion from an experienced builder on Facebook, plus seeing a Troel's build, I'm thinking this would be a good build for PC speakers. And yes I'm aware I'd have to sit around 5ft away:
ScanSpeak Revelator 18M/4631T 7" Midrange
ScanSpeak Revelator D2904/7100-03 1.1"
OSD XMP100BT GEN2
ScanSpeak Revelator 18M/4631T 7" Midrange
ScanSpeak Revelator D2904/7100-03 1.1"
OSD XMP100BT GEN2
OP:
Yes to revelator 4" mids. Reall am a big fan of the revelator motors and cones, but the mid needs a little more EQ than it's Illuminator counter part, which is easily solved with DSP.
Depending on the overall construction, you might even want to switch to a 5" midwoofer. The advantage there is you can go lower, and have more physical distance between it and the woofer. With the 4" units you would have to cross around 300 Hz, but I think the 5" units can go down to 100 Hz.
Yes to revelator 4" mids. Reall am a big fan of the revelator motors and cones, but the mid needs a little more EQ than it's Illuminator counter part, which is easily solved with DSP.
Depending on the overall construction, you might even want to switch to a 5" midwoofer. The advantage there is you can go lower, and have more physical distance between it and the woofer. With the 4" units you would have to cross around 300 Hz, but I think the 5" units can go down to 100 Hz.
Better speakers in what way? What was the previous design? Show us, and lets see if anything jumps out as a potential shortcoming, or area of improvement.
There are many options. I tend to use sloped baffles, and low order x-overs. Big round overs on the edges are an advantage. I also position the speakers quite a ways from walls. With an active x-over, a sloped baffle is not needed.
I like for a mid chamber to be large, and heavily damped. I made a few prototypes using an open back on the mid. I liked those, but I didn't know how to make them look good. I'm not much of a woodworker.
I would try to limit digital to analog conversions. Don't convert, and convert back, etc.
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"Better speakers in what way? What was the previous design? Show us, and lets see if anything jumps out as a potential shortcoming.."
It was too long ago, the links to the drivers don't work anymore. I believe it was something like:
Peerless $40 5.25" woofer
Vifa(?) $30 1.125" silk tweeter... maybe?
It was too long ago, the links to the drivers don't work anymore. I believe it was something like:
Peerless $40 5.25" woofer
Vifa(?) $30 1.125" silk tweeter... maybe?
That would be the easiest part of such a project. Simply make it sealed instead and equalize the bass (with dsp or analog line level eq).
Um, based on the distortion profile, 65Hz Fs and personal experience I'd say they were overly cautious. It does fine at 350 Hz, but worth evaluating the excursion depending on just how much power you really are going to put in it. 🙂
I'm confused by "physical distance".
If I go with a larger driver, then by necessity it has to be further away from the 8" woofer, because ... it takes more space?
Or are you saying that increasing distance is actually a good thing, whereas I thought drivers were supposed to be as close together as possible for imaging purposes?
Not at all. It will reduce group delay at the expense of some low frequency SPL headroom - but you have subwoofers anyway and no extreme level requirements, so just go for it!
"Not at all. It will reduce group delay at the expense of some low frequency SPL headroom - but you have subwoofers anyway and no extreme level requirements, so just go for it!"
Okay, I'll keep that option in my mind then. Thanks!
"If you want to tinker and have fun I'd suggest getting familiar with REW and buy an entry level MiniDSP product."
Yeah, I used REW for my room measurements when I was building acoustic panels. I think I used it for driver modeling too? I have a calibrated behringer omni mic for this.
Okay, I'll keep that option in my mind then. Thanks!
"If you want to tinker and have fun I'd suggest getting familiar with REW and buy an entry level MiniDSP product."
Yeah, I used REW for my room measurements when I was building acoustic panels. I think I used it for driver modeling too? I have a calibrated behringer omni mic for this.
If you do not need to play loud, and are crossing to subs then look for a 2 way build with a tweeter that goes low, and has the smallest midbass you can get away with to give you the best chance of having the drivers within 1/4 wavelength at xo point. Maybe just look for 2 way scanspeak kits and build an active version.
Rob.
Rob.
I'm quite happy with my 5.25" 2-way+sub system. However, in a 3-way the mid will have no cone movement from bass, and should ( maybe I should say could be. ) be just a little bit better. The trade-off is size, cost, and complexity.
The driver distance comment was related to woofer placement. Some designs put the woofer close to the floor so there's a bigger gap between the mid and woofer.
A 10" 3-way + sub would be my "no compromise" speaker. There's always compromises, but this is what I would gravitate towards.
The driver distance comment was related to woofer placement. Some designs put the woofer close to the floor so there's a bigger gap between the mid and woofer.
A 10" 3-way + sub would be my "no compromise" speaker. There's always compromises, but this is what I would gravitate towards.
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I meant in a case where you put the midrange up near ear level but the woofer near the floor.
If you want a really great sounding two way to start with, try the Revelator 18W series of mid-woofers with any of several reasonably priced tweeters. Plenty of bass with the right cabinet and in the right room.
Speaking of which, here's a good thread on good sounding budget components: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/budget-amt-comparison.417324/page-3