DAC is extremely important for opera, not as much as for rock and pop. The count of harmonics playing simultaneously (will it be like 2000 of them?) in the opera is far beyond rock music (like 200?). Just the count of bits to store that is crazy. Any substandard DAC won't make it. I am using Bifrost, it's much cheaper than audiophile DACs and require a lot of cheap tweaks around it. Real audiophile DACs like Benchmark or Yggdrasill are a lot more expensive and don't need any tweaks, but with tweaks Bifrost comes a hair close for a fraction of a price.
I have the W6-2313 as well, and I can say they image incredibly well. Dynamics can be made better with low end support, which you would absolutely need here.
I am a huge fan of OB for this kind of stuff. Boxes give me the feeling of sound shot towards me, but OB gives me that staging sound. As mentioned, androxylo said he prefers live sound instead amplified sound. Again, the difference between 360 sound emanating from an ensemble, compared to sound projected at the listener.
OB emulates this the best to my ears.
But OB is really hard to get low end, without going really big woofers and power. So, a nice W6-2313 (which is a coax, it needs a XO, and it is not as simple as just putting a cap on the tweeter), supported by a low-mid woofer down to 50-80Hz, or maybe something like the Qualio IQ speaker.
Either way, will need multiple sealed subs with a good amount of EQ or one or two MLTL subs that can be placed under the sofa, under a table, etc....
I am a huge fan of OB for this kind of stuff. Boxes give me the feeling of sound shot towards me, but OB gives me that staging sound. As mentioned, androxylo said he prefers live sound instead amplified sound. Again, the difference between 360 sound emanating from an ensemble, compared to sound projected at the listener.
OB emulates this the best to my ears.
But OB is really hard to get low end, without going really big woofers and power. So, a nice W6-2313 (which is a coax, it needs a XO, and it is not as simple as just putting a cap on the tweeter), supported by a low-mid woofer down to 50-80Hz, or maybe something like the Qualio IQ speaker.
Either way, will need multiple sealed subs with a good amount of EQ or one or two MLTL subs that can be placed under the sofa, under a table, etc....
I definitely volunteer to listen any opera on Tidal on anyone request and report what I can hear there in terms of clarity, details and soundstage and if I find this recording made better than average. Not on dynamics, I don't have that.
This is the thing! Opera is not a rock concert! You nailed it! Get rid of those microphones and speakers!
I think the room has a significant effect on the sound. I found the best way to improve the sound is to add padding, add carpet, drapes, damping on the walls. If you have a large listening room you can add diffusors. After you treat the room the sound from your speakers will approach what the sound engineer was going for. The imaging will improve and the ambiance of the recording room or auditorium will be revealed. You can improve most sound systems with some room treatment.
@Arthur Jackson
in an undamped room already a carpet in front of the loudspeakers does wonders to the sound
Once visited someone doing a listening test he had large glass front in the living room being undamped. The sound was like mud. Told him some curtain would help....
he omitted the "degradation" of the look of his room and went only for changing crossover parts for expensive ones.
in an undamped room already a carpet in front of the loudspeakers does wonders to the sound
Once visited someone doing a listening test he had large glass front in the living room being undamped. The sound was like mud. Told him some curtain would help....
he omitted the "degradation" of the look of his room and went only for changing crossover parts for expensive ones.
If you really want an opera like in the concert hall it needs to be a system with huge headroom and dynamics, as that kind of music has huge dynamic changes. Your system need to be able to play +20dB louder than your average listening level to not compress the music or that you don't hear the silent passages good because the volume is to low. Phase coherency is also very important on voices, especailly almost uncompressed or otherwise processed voices like in opera recordings. That's why many like fullrange drivers, even if they don't have the needed dynamics (they do compress).
The best opera reproductions i heared were on big JBL systems, actually cinema systems like the 4722 with 4642A subs below it, and active crossovered with dsp. The Tannoy Westminster, altough very coloured in sound, does it also right. It's the speaker i listened a lot of italian opera on at the house of my italian former father in law. Meyer sound Blue Horn systems are also very good at this.
All these are high sensitive big woofer with compression driver systems,, the Tannoy is a coax in a compound horn, the JBL and Meyer classic multways with big woofers and compression drivers in horn. if you use those and get the crossover right, is in my opinion the best you can get for this. These systems are all going over 110dB clean, but you listen a lot lower off course.
Clean amp sound is also often better than coloured amps for classical music. For other styles (expecially jazz) very coloured tube amps do it better, but not for classical or opera. But it still can sound good (when enough power) with it altough. Enough power is a big thing in this, due to the big dynamic changes it needs to catch without power sag or compression.
The best opera reproductions i heared were on big JBL systems, actually cinema systems like the 4722 with 4642A subs below it, and active crossovered with dsp. The Tannoy Westminster, altough very coloured in sound, does it also right. It's the speaker i listened a lot of italian opera on at the house of my italian former father in law. Meyer sound Blue Horn systems are also very good at this.
All these are high sensitive big woofer with compression driver systems,, the Tannoy is a coax in a compound horn, the JBL and Meyer classic multways with big woofers and compression drivers in horn. if you use those and get the crossover right, is in my opinion the best you can get for this. These systems are all going over 110dB clean, but you listen a lot lower off course.
Clean amp sound is also often better than coloured amps for classical music. For other styles (expecially jazz) very coloured tube amps do it better, but not for classical or opera. But it still can sound good (when enough power) with it altough. Enough power is a big thing in this, due to the big dynamic changes it needs to catch without power sag or compression.
Agreed 100%. Listening to familiar tracks at lower levels on a good PA with massive headroom (1250Wrms/channel on the mid/HF compression drivers) reveals just how compressed a small domestic hifi really is.
Peak levels close to some orchestral instruments exceeds 130dB, so depending upon how these are recorded, we could have an exceptional dynamic range to reproduce.
Agreed - mostly. I find that overdamped rooms can sound very flat and lifeless - our brain is used to hearing reverberation in real life, and being deprived of sound coming from around and behind sounds very odd to my ear.
Diffusers are probably the most under-used trick in music reproduction setups.
I listen to rather loud classical and opera.
Depends on the recording.
Im with @waxx
Need dynamic range
Depends on the recordings
Some passages are much lower and I keep the volume high to make low level passages more audible.
Then when big dynamics kick in you need the bass and good mid so strings dont turn to mush.
Not into mystical magical theory nonsense, having owned numerous speakers in my life.
Normal 2 way or 3 way with big woofers, good mids and a tweeter with no fatigue.
Probably a zillion " Hi Fi" speakers with those generic goals.
I personally moved to larger mids like 6.5" even 8" to get the cello's to sound good.
And wont deal with woofers any smaller than 12"
Large mids need large tweeters
My last apartment was wood floor with thin area rugs.
Other houses were large rooms with carpet or large rooms with tile.
For a " Auditorium" Sound, sure I guess reflective rooms and wood floors made things sound more " live"
Basically room reflections.
Really the recording makes a difference.
16 speakers sounds like a combing nonsense gimmick. Reminds me of old 70's magazines that said " sounds like the singer is right in the room"
or whatever other add copy for people to " imagine" something special.
Called stereo, 2 speakers and a amp. Spread them out further for everyones nonsense " imaging"
Its called stereo and " imaging" is in the recording.
Get some ancient 90's surround sound receiver and play with the generic effects for the rear surrounds that could be turned on for normal stereo playback. Sounds fake to me, some people loved fake reverb delay.
Dont need open baffle for room reflection blur.
No recording will ever sound like the concert hall. Every recording is slightly different and the best orchestras from the 50's and 60's
have great performances but the recordings vary with microphone or other distortions, so it is whatever. Is what it is.
Depends on the recording.
Im with @waxx
Need dynamic range
Depends on the recordings
Some passages are much lower and I keep the volume high to make low level passages more audible.
Then when big dynamics kick in you need the bass and good mid so strings dont turn to mush.
Not into mystical magical theory nonsense, having owned numerous speakers in my life.
Normal 2 way or 3 way with big woofers, good mids and a tweeter with no fatigue.
Probably a zillion " Hi Fi" speakers with those generic goals.
I personally moved to larger mids like 6.5" even 8" to get the cello's to sound good.
And wont deal with woofers any smaller than 12"
Large mids need large tweeters
My last apartment was wood floor with thin area rugs.
Other houses were large rooms with carpet or large rooms with tile.
For a " Auditorium" Sound, sure I guess reflective rooms and wood floors made things sound more " live"
Basically room reflections.
Really the recording makes a difference.
16 speakers sounds like a combing nonsense gimmick. Reminds me of old 70's magazines that said " sounds like the singer is right in the room"
or whatever other add copy for people to " imagine" something special.
Called stereo, 2 speakers and a amp. Spread them out further for everyones nonsense " imaging"
Its called stereo and " imaging" is in the recording.
Get some ancient 90's surround sound receiver and play with the generic effects for the rear surrounds that could be turned on for normal stereo playback. Sounds fake to me, some people loved fake reverb delay.
Dont need open baffle for room reflection blur.
No recording will ever sound like the concert hall. Every recording is slightly different and the best orchestras from the 50's and 60's
have great performances but the recordings vary with microphone or other distortions, so it is whatever. Is what it is.
Yes rooms can be over-damped, I don't think I've ever come across any. I'm sure they exist somewhere but it's not in the average American's living room. Most of the time I see big brick fire places, tile and hardwood floors, and big glass windows like @Freedom666 said. Many are pure cacophony.
Diffusers are great in a large room where you can use a large diffuser to cover the midrange. The thing is many people buy skyline diffusers because they look cool like in a mixing studio and they put them in a relatively small space where they are really diffusing nothing. I'm not a big fan of the LE-DE philosophy I like to remove the first echo and try to remove the rooms harmonics. My room has damping around the front and across the big walls, the back is mostly bookshelves and provides some diffusion, it works pretty good for me. I was thinking about getting rid of the ceiling fan and putting some large curved diffusors on the ceiling.
One of my big disappointments was the remastered Beatles. It seems like all they did was compress the recording. Everything today is compressed beyond belief. Any remastered CDs are not remastered at all they are simply compressed. This is one reason they've gone to live performances with microphones, people aren't used to dynamics. They want the compressed sound they have in their car. One of Buddy Guy's schticks was to play softer and softer, and take it down, softer, pretty soon he was playing with the amp off and you could hear the picking on an electric guitar but nothing from the amplifiers. Then he would bring it up and blow the roof off the place. Great fun!
I used to have a Benchmark DAC-3. Sound stage was narrow and forward (in front of the speakers). IME that usually indicates a jitter problem. Gave it to my daughter and got a better dac for myself, a diy one.
Same here.
The remastered Genesis albums were turned into Katy Perry pop sounding sound. Loads of compression added to vocals, I couldn't even recognize Peter Gabriel, it is so bad. Horrible V shaped EQ applied copiously with ear piercing high and booming lows and recessed in the middle.
Unfortunately, most streaming services only offer the newer remastered versions, so people will never know how great dynamics the originals had. It was not perfect, but so much better than the horrible remasters!
Me an mamselle had a subscription to the MetOpera in NYC for about 20 years. We potted ourselves around this magnificent opera house, finding two sweet spots to which we assigned our subsciptions. One was in the rear of the orchestra center, rear most seats...the other in a box stage left. You get a quite different perception dependent upon where you are sitting.
One recording which I recommend to any seat in the house is Vivaldi "Juditha" with Magdalena Kozena from a few years back. Sounds great wherever you are sitting.
If you can do "live", do it!
Absolutely. If there was a Geneva Convention for sound recording, the compressor would have been the first piece of audio equipment to be banned.
Compression is particularly a killer of live recorded sound, and when one does have a system capable of lifelike dynamic range, the problem then becomes one of sourcing good recordings. I'm sure that the OP has found this out already, and sadly the problem becomes more acute the better the hifi system. Most domestic systems cannot come even close to the dynamic range required to reproduce orchestral dynamics properly; listening at an average of, say, 85dBA, a 100W amp will give us barely 20dB headroom.
The instantaneous amplifier output voltage required in order not to clip transients is huge, even though the average power remains quite low, therefore hugely overrated amplifiers are obligatory. The dynamic range of digital equipment is beyond question and need not be considered a problem. Vinyl of course has a considerably more limited dynamic range.
🙂
I agree for the most part, but a compressor in the hands of someone who knows about dynamics can help bring out some aspect of the song without killing the overall dynamics. Indeed, they have been applied just like antibiotics have been given to even the common cold, so we have another set of problems in our hands!
Fortunately every opera on Tidal has at least 2-3 (my favorite rare stuff Macbeth of Mzensk and Nixon in China) to like 40 (Aida) variants. You can always find something well conducted and well recorded simultaneously. Not a problem with compression. With rock it really really sucks as above.
Compression is a very usefull tool for recording, and should not be an issue with normal use. The big problem is that it's used to make things sound louder, not better, and that is what makes a lot of modern masterings sound like ****. But even in the old days they used compression, even before dedicated devices existed they used tape compression (driving the tape hard) to get that compresion. It's a part of the sound of modern music, and used even in many classicl recordings of long ago. But then it was with skills and the right ammount, not limiting the life out of it totally like is now done all the time.