Nichicon bipolar muse capacitors are used to replace cheap bipolars in various manufacturers equipment.
I have done this in a DAC, 10uF 16v check out liquid audio mods for MF M1 Dac) but am aware that mkp (metalised film) capacitors would be better.
These are not available for the equivalent nichicon muse, they tend to be much higher voltage, 240v 400v etc so tend to be huge and ££££.
I've seen Wima capacitors 10uF 50v that are relatively small and not overly expensive so my question is there likely to be any improvement in the audio by using 2 of these in parallel with a nichicon muse (can be smaller value than the 47uF)? Note the mods I refer to, they put a 0.1uF wima in parallel with the muse.
The capacitor in question is a coupling capacitor.
I have done this in a DAC, 10uF 16v check out liquid audio mods for MF M1 Dac) but am aware that mkp (metalised film) capacitors would be better.
These are not available for the equivalent nichicon muse, they tend to be much higher voltage, 240v 400v etc so tend to be huge and ££££.
I've seen Wima capacitors 10uF 50v that are relatively small and not overly expensive so my question is there likely to be any improvement in the audio by using 2 of these in parallel with a nichicon muse (can be smaller value than the 47uF)? Note the mods I refer to, they put a 0.1uF wima in parallel with the muse.
The capacitor in question is a coupling capacitor.
Check out Audio Note Kaisei caps. Also available in bipolar. Good sounding. HiFi Collective have stocks.
I use these in parallel with Elna Silmic 2 as cathode bypasses. They were better than Muse caps there.
I use these in parallel with Elna Silmic 2 as cathode bypasses. They were better than Muse caps there.
Not necessarily. Good electrolytics bypassed with .01uf Wima MKP can sound more true than large body film caps. The electrolytics may take a couple of weeks or more to fully settle in, when used for coupling. Large body film caps can give an impression of transparency, but they tend to lose low level information in a way that smaller body film caps don't. I have discussed this with a couple well-known, full-time, professional high end audio designers and we all agree that there is some problem with large body film caps. Curiously, large body film caps can work well in speaker crossovers, and maybe in tube circuits.
Used to be there were low voltage film caps which could be used for low voltage coupling, but the thinner polypropylene film has become unavailable, so only larger body high voltage caps are being made in larger uF values.
Let's say you have a small body film cap of 100uF and 100 uF bipolar. The film is the "best sounding"* at 10/10 and bipolar is not so good at 5/10.
Due to cost you use a 50uF bipolar in parallel with 50uF film. Can you assume the "sound quality" is distributed evenly across both so result is 7.5/10 or is it more complex so non-linear (frequency must come into it)? Basically the question is as you put a larger value of film in parallel with smaller value bipolar so total capacitance does not change, does the sound improve in proportion?
* not sure how you would measure the sound quality.
Due to cost you use a 50uF bipolar in parallel with 50uF film. Can you assume the "sound quality" is distributed evenly across both so result is 7.5/10 or is it more complex so non-linear (frequency must come into it)? Basically the question is as you put a larger value of film in parallel with smaller value bipolar so total capacitance does not change, does the sound improve in proportion?
* not sure how you would measure the sound quality.
I did some experiments over about a week, with combining caps as cathode bypasses. The best sounding were single Kemet DC Link film caps. They sounded worse combined with electrolytics. The best sounding single electrolytics were AudioNote Kaisei, but they sounded better still in parallel with Elna Silmic 2. Just a note that Silmics require at least a week's burn in - the other caps didn't seem fussy. The Kaisei caps sounded a little better combined with Silmics than with the DC Links. I can only put this down to a happy coincidence - the combination just worked. I couldn't get any other combinations to work as well. Silmic 2 was quite good by itself but audibly better combined with the Kaisei. The Silmics are neutral and a little flat, the Kaisei more alive.
I tried several Nichicons. The Muse ES bipolar caps sounded superficially interesting, but on extended listening were just too bright sounding to recommend. A Nichicon Gold Tune, 4,700uF, was quite good and useful for higher values, though larger than needed for the cathode bypass. Nichicon Muse and Fine Gold were very average sounding. So as above, the combination that worked for me was Kaisei plus Silmic 2. I used both 47uF plus 47uF and 100uF plus 100uF. Not much difference - both sounded good.
This was all done in the cathode of the driver stage in a 2 stage SE tube amp, directly driven by a DAC. So very exposed. No other tubes and no preamp. Listening material was acoustic - opera, orchestral, chamber and jazz. Tonality of the acoustic instruments was the critical factor. I'd add that I'm an ex-pro musician and acoustic instruments are very familiar to me.
The above caps were not tried as coupling caps. I'd be interested to know how they compare in that role.
I tried several Nichicons. The Muse ES bipolar caps sounded superficially interesting, but on extended listening were just too bright sounding to recommend. A Nichicon Gold Tune, 4,700uF, was quite good and useful for higher values, though larger than needed for the cathode bypass. Nichicon Muse and Fine Gold were very average sounding. So as above, the combination that worked for me was Kaisei plus Silmic 2. I used both 47uF plus 47uF and 100uF plus 100uF. Not much difference - both sounded good.
This was all done in the cathode of the driver stage in a 2 stage SE tube amp, directly driven by a DAC. So very exposed. No other tubes and no preamp. Listening material was acoustic - opera, orchestral, chamber and jazz. Tonality of the acoustic instruments was the critical factor. I'd add that I'm an ex-pro musician and acoustic instruments are very familiar to me.
The above caps were not tried as coupling caps. I'd be interested to know how they compare in that role.
Usually mixing different kinds of caps in parallel sounds worse. Only exception offhand is a small bypass if FR starts to fall off at some point with main cap. Film bypass cap may sound best in that case if its ESR is similar to the main cap.
I can't answer that, I'm afraid. I only listen for the tonality of acoustic instruments so that I have a reference point I'm familiar with. Sorry!
Electrolytis shall have NO BIAS!
Film caps has lower distortion:
Must read https://linearaudio.nl/sites/linear...0 to 100uF caps and 100 Hz measurements_0.pdf
Film caps has lower distortion:
Must read https://linearaudio.nl/sites/linear...0 to 100uF caps and 100 Hz measurements_0.pdf
Bateman used AC voltages higher than 60mV. So no wonder.
Bateman also said some DC bias was beneficial.
Please see: "Capacitor Sounds 5 - 1 µF choice - Electrolytic or Film ?"
My comment: Small body film caps would likely be better sounding than electrolytics. Large body, maybe not so much (but the problem isn't with HD/IMD).
Bateman also said some DC bias was beneficial.
Please see: "Capacitor Sounds 5 - 1 µF choice - Electrolytic or Film ?"
My comment: Small body film caps would likely be better sounding than electrolytics. Large body, maybe not so much (but the problem isn't with HD/IMD).
I've never been able to measure any impact within the audio band of the Nichicon MUSE UES-series capacitors (the bright green ones). I would be more concerned about the impact of having a physically large film capacitor connected to a footprint intended for an electrolytic capacitor. The additional wiring results in additional series inductance and, depending on where in the circuit the capacitor is, that could have an impact on circuit performance. You may introduce instability. You will also get higher inductive coupling into and out of the circuit, which could result in anything from not passing EMC requirements to hum and noise being induced into the circuit.
Many of the issues that plagued electrolytic capacitors last century have been solved, so I would not shy away from them. If it makes you feel any better, just bypass them with 0.1-1.0 uF film or NP0/C0G ceramic and you'll be fine.
And speaking of ceramic capacitors. Don't shun those. Ceramic capacitors with NP0/C0G dielectric have lower distortion than film capacitors in many cases. Just make sure that you use a type that's rated for a relatively high voltage (≥ 50 V) and that's physically large (0603 or larger for surface mount types).
Tom
On the "Bateman also said some DC bias was beneficial." topic.
Wrong. He found that a small dc bias could be beneficial, but the results were erratic and often worse.
He did not recommend doing this. Keep the bias voltage as low as possible for the best, predictable results.
Wrong. He found that a small dc bias could be beneficial, but the results were erratic and often worse.
He did not recommend doing this. Keep the bias voltage as low as possible for the best, predictable results.
Okay. Bateman may have found that given the caps available at the time. IME today, a little bias is not necessarily a problem and it can sometimes be of some benefit. That said, and I don't know if Bateman was aware of this, but it can take some time for electrolytics to fully settle into circuit operating conditions. For electrolytics, it can take a week or two to fully settle; maybe even a bit longer.
Well, still wrong. You have no evidence to support your assumptions. And his small data set showed problems with putting voltage across a electrolytic cap with the signal. All you have to do to avoid that is limit the DC voltage or use a much larger cap.
Best data available unless you want to do the testing as he did.
Best data available unless you want to do the testing as he did.
I have used those Kemet DC link caps in crossovers and they weren’t too bad at all. Never considered them for signal coupling.
I never felt the need to bypass a Muse however, always sounded better than they should for an electrolytic cap.
I never felt the need to bypass a Muse however, always sounded better than they should for an electrolytic cap.
Yep, Mark, assumptions.
Based on zero actual evidence. Zero actual testing with controls in place.
Based on zero actual evidence. Zero actual testing with controls in place.
Sorry, but observations without measurements and without controls have been a key part of science since formal science has existed. For example, the first reported observation of a Soliton wave was made without measurements and without testing controls in place.