Not good at all... +-9 dB... That is unlistenable.
https://rutcho.com/speaker_drivers/alpair_10p_a/alpair_10p_a.html
Funny, they're actually quite a nice driver to listen to. I guess all the people enjoying them are deaf. 😆
jeff
jeff
Reasons can extend beyond linear response of the driver. We are going into personal preferences category.
And I sincerely apologize, If I offended anybody. Really.
Seems like you never had an opportunity to listen an alpair in a good enclosure to make all these statements. Tell us about your experience with fullrange... What have you really listened to? Driver, enclosure design, amplification, room?
Or are you simply parroting things based on graphs and other theoretical stuff?
Or are you simply parroting things based on graphs and other theoretical stuff?
~15 different drivers on my own personal projects from 2.5 to 3.5 inch range. More or less some the popular and discussed here in forums
Visaton BG17, B200 from the bigger ones. Some Russian made "fake" fullrange speakers, which are capable by theory, but not by practice, do not remember the model. I do not count those I have listened less than couple of hours.
Different rooms: my own house, workshop with ~5m ceilings and walls 4x4m. Some of the hifi shops, events. Friends places.
Amps: I am a fan of transparent amp. Fake 2nd order distortion makers are not my preference. Lets say that extensively listened to ~10-15 in my life, good quality class D is by far my favorite. Any other transparent amp will do. If we are talking about colorations - big fan of Denon type of sound: pretty much on the transparent side, not Yamaha type - somehow too harsh. Also no SET please.
Parroting? I have to buy yet another FR to see that all of them are pretty much out of pistonic action at some high freq?
FR have their usage, but we (you too) that +-9dB from 200 till 15kHz is still too much for ~4inch driver by any standards.
I was WAY too long in FR bandcamp. They have its purpose, but accuracy of music reproduction is not big FR driver forte. Probably ~3inch are the limit for somewhat linear 200Hz-15kHz sound.
Exactly!
FR driver is just a compromise, with big drivers you are loosing linearity and, imo, that is such a big drawback, that most of the gains do not compensate for it.
The off axis graphs given in the brochure are completely different:
https://rutcho.com/speaker_drivers/alpair_10p_a/resources/Alpair_10P_Gen.1.pdf
However Hificompass measurements match Rutcho's:
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/markaudio/markaudio-alpair-10p
Every driver I've heard with this much ringing hurts my ears and I just turn it off and put it to the side. The motor is clearly low distortion, but the 500Hz resonance largely spoils that.
Anyone who has measured and listened to drivers could without a doubt be forgiven for passing on this one after seeing the measurements.
Graphs are not mine. Measurements of different drivers in the same conditions show what is what.
Also when you see graph with 120dB range - you have to be suspicious. On such graph everything will look nice and shiny.
50dB range:
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/Scan-Speak_Discovery_10f-8414g10_fullrange_driver.pdf
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/SEAS_Prestige_H1600-08_FU10RB_Datasheet.pdf
60dB
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/SB-Acouscics_SB10PGC21-4_widebander.pdf
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/SB_Acoustics_SB65WBAC25-4_wideband.pdf
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/Visaton_B_200_fullrange_driver.pdf
Also on most of the manufacturers sheets are no info about graph smoothing, gating and so on. Maybe they are using the same or similar methodic, maybe not, maybe they are following the standard (IEC 60268-5 ?) they are claiming, maybe not. Independent reviewers are the ones I trust.
Also when you see graph with 120dB range - you have to be suspicious. On such graph everything will look nice and shiny.
50dB range:
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/Scan-Speak_Discovery_10f-8414g10_fullrange_driver.pdf
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/SEAS_Prestige_H1600-08_FU10RB_Datasheet.pdf
60dB
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/SB-Acouscics_SB10PGC21-4_widebander.pdf
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/SB_Acoustics_SB65WBAC25-4_wideband.pdf
https://audio-hi.fi/download/pdf/Visaton_B_200_fullrange_driver.pdf
Also on most of the manufacturers sheets are no info about graph smoothing, gating and so on. Maybe they are using the same or similar methodic, maybe not, maybe they are following the standard (IEC 60268-5 ?) they are claiming, maybe not. Independent reviewers are the ones I trust.
What is the entry-to-centre between the woofer & the tweeter (in crossover frequency wavelengths)? How fast is the XO?
You focus on the measred FR, but yours suffers from a crossover and the evils/compromioses it brings. You aren’t showing measurements for that. They would have to be part ofthe equation. And then there is however the end user choosues to weiht all those things.
dave
Controlliing the cone in a wideband driver is a very hard task, As a generalization, the larger the cone, the harder it is.
One of the reasons a WAW makes sense.
If one starts with a single driver box, it can be turned intoa WAW as a second project when the budget allows (and the design target/design is established)
dave
0
Ligthspeed fast
Well we have to agree what we will define a good driver, good driver combo, for simplicity sake 2 driver combo, and then we will define what the evil is.
I agree to the most common consensus that good driver or speaker has to have in that order:
1. Correct slope, no huge peaks and drops in SPL range, including high and low Q.
2. The same as above, but in adequate listening angles. For me it is +-45 degrees hor is more than enough, but that does not mean that at big angles or in real room it can be a mess in the back of the speaker. So we can call real room performance in real listening conditions. I want for speakers to serve me, not for me to adapt to them - directivity on steroids.
And then I would arrange loosely:
-No parasitic vibration of cone during signal decay - maybe we can call ringing this?
-More H2 and less H3 distortion. Still have little bias for soft sound, but that is a nuance.
-Adequate requirements for practical usage: amp power, box size and so on. And price, of course!
That is pretty much it.
Here is sixpack. Box is still a prototype and it is very very leaky.
That is the very first xover project I am doing.
Depending on what you can source, best price-performance:
Dayton RS100-8, RS100p-8. I have just metal version, but will go for paper any time, because I don't like metal cones sharpness
Vifa TC9
For 120 you can buy pair RS100P-8 and pair TC9 and listen to all of them depending on your mood.
There are gazillion of independent measurements of both of them on the internet.
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Only one way to find out. Get a pair and report back. Lot's of box designs on the MA site. Easy to model, f3 @~55Hz in a 14L vented box. Fill in the bottom octaves with a sub if desired.
jeff