Hello everyone!!!
I am writing to you from Italy, and finally after a long time, I am about to start the construction of my final audio system (at least for a while)!
I would like to present the project, and ask you as well as your opinions, some advice...
Ready, go!
The room is 4,3x10mt big, the system will be placed on the narrowest wall.
At the end of the room there are stairs going down, so it is not enclosed. The roof is built with wooden beams placed crosswise, relative to the placement of the system.
The thermal insulation of the house was made cork, which could also help with the sound.
This Is the room:
I have always been fascinated by the sound of horn loaded systems, and after much thinking and many doubts, I am finally coming to a concrete final idea:
Three way, fully horn loaded, multi amplified system.
Bass with Radian 2216 neo driver, loaded in spiral box as designed by inlowsound:
https://inlowsound.weebly.com/spiral-bass-horn.html
Double mid-bass with b&c 8pe21 driver, again based on inlow design:
https://inlowsound.weebly.com/135-hz-mid-bass-horn.html
Mid-high with Radian 950pb driver, loaded on Arai 290 horn:
https://www.araihorn.com/p/arai-290.html?m=1
As a preamplifier I have my eye on a model from Black eyes audio, tube with integrated dac:
https://blackiceaudio.com/daccd-pla...p_mzEsxKOnnsQ6TQI1Z-rqfXn0mVFk4z7O3LGaK6aC_vI
For the crossover I like the dbmark series:
https://dbmark.co.uk/products.php?i=XCAX
For the power amps I wanted to install class d amps made by IcePower, models and power ratings to be determined.
Indicative cutoff frequencies 130Hz/600Hz...
You will carry out the construction by me, and calibration together with a friend....
I am looking for a very dynamic and very exciting sound, but one that does not fatigue the ear....
I would like the frequency response to be as even as possible throughout the room....
I would like to have great quality both very low and at very high volumes...
Here is a picture of the possible arrangement...
Let's move on to the questions:
My first idea was to make a four way system, and supplement the Radian driver with a tweeter higher up...
Given the problem of the distance of the emission centers, I decided to let the Radian driver do all the work up to 20KHz, but I have no idea how it will behave on the higher frequencies, like above 12Khz...
The changes introduced by Arai on its horn, compared to the Tad one, should give me a good off-axis frequency response even for the higher frequencies...
Has anyone had a chance to test this aspect of this driver? How do you think it will perform combined with this horn?
Also regarding the Radian driver, is the 8ohm version or the 16ohm version preferable?
Also the issue of dual mid-bass is to be able to have the most consistent frequency response possible across the width of the room, and so I should match 2+2 horns...
The designer told me that this horn has great punch and matches the bass very well, and that's exactly what I'm looking for....
The problem is the off-axis response, and I was thinking of solving it by doubling the horns....
How would you amplify the horns? Drivers in series?
Given the stability of the 4ohm amps, also parallel drivers?
Or even better, get the crossover with 4 outputs and put in two power amps?
I'm also a bit worried about tube preamplification....
Let's say I would like to give some warmth to the sound with preamplification, but then I would like to have the sharpness and control of a class d on the power amps...
I wonder how much sense this would make?
My friend who will help me with the calibration claims that we can use the crossover to create the kind of sound I want....
If this is feasible, I could easily opt for another non-valve preamplifier....
What do you think?
All opinions are welcome, thank you all very much, and Sorry for the english
I am writing to you from Italy, and finally after a long time, I am about to start the construction of my final audio system (at least for a while)!
I would like to present the project, and ask you as well as your opinions, some advice...
Ready, go!
The room is 4,3x10mt big, the system will be placed on the narrowest wall.
At the end of the room there are stairs going down, so it is not enclosed. The roof is built with wooden beams placed crosswise, relative to the placement of the system.
The thermal insulation of the house was made cork, which could also help with the sound.
This Is the room:
I have always been fascinated by the sound of horn loaded systems, and after much thinking and many doubts, I am finally coming to a concrete final idea:
Three way, fully horn loaded, multi amplified system.
Bass with Radian 2216 neo driver, loaded in spiral box as designed by inlowsound:
https://inlowsound.weebly.com/spiral-bass-horn.html
Double mid-bass with b&c 8pe21 driver, again based on inlow design:
https://inlowsound.weebly.com/135-hz-mid-bass-horn.html
Mid-high with Radian 950pb driver, loaded on Arai 290 horn:
https://www.araihorn.com/p/arai-290.html?m=1
As a preamplifier I have my eye on a model from Black eyes audio, tube with integrated dac:
https://blackiceaudio.com/daccd-pla...p_mzEsxKOnnsQ6TQI1Z-rqfXn0mVFk4z7O3LGaK6aC_vI
For the crossover I like the dbmark series:
https://dbmark.co.uk/products.php?i=XCAX
For the power amps I wanted to install class d amps made by IcePower, models and power ratings to be determined.
Indicative cutoff frequencies 130Hz/600Hz...
You will carry out the construction by me, and calibration together with a friend....
I am looking for a very dynamic and very exciting sound, but one that does not fatigue the ear....
I would like the frequency response to be as even as possible throughout the room....
I would like to have great quality both very low and at very high volumes...
Here is a picture of the possible arrangement...
Let's move on to the questions:
My first idea was to make a four way system, and supplement the Radian driver with a tweeter higher up...
Given the problem of the distance of the emission centers, I decided to let the Radian driver do all the work up to 20KHz, but I have no idea how it will behave on the higher frequencies, like above 12Khz...
The changes introduced by Arai on its horn, compared to the Tad one, should give me a good off-axis frequency response even for the higher frequencies...
Has anyone had a chance to test this aspect of this driver? How do you think it will perform combined with this horn?
Also regarding the Radian driver, is the 8ohm version or the 16ohm version preferable?
Also the issue of dual mid-bass is to be able to have the most consistent frequency response possible across the width of the room, and so I should match 2+2 horns...
The designer told me that this horn has great punch and matches the bass very well, and that's exactly what I'm looking for....
The problem is the off-axis response, and I was thinking of solving it by doubling the horns....
How would you amplify the horns? Drivers in series?
Given the stability of the 4ohm amps, also parallel drivers?
Or even better, get the crossover with 4 outputs and put in two power amps?
I'm also a bit worried about tube preamplification....
Let's say I would like to give some warmth to the sound with preamplification, but then I would like to have the sharpness and control of a class d on the power amps...
I wonder how much sense this would make?
My friend who will help me with the calibration claims that we can use the crossover to create the kind of sound I want....
If this is feasible, I could easily opt for another non-valve preamplifier....
What do you think?
All opinions are welcome, thank you all very much, and Sorry for the english
How high does the bass horn need to go?
Smooth curves are usually counter-productive, and consideraby harder to build.
You should alsoconsider loading the mouth into the corner to extend the bass by maximizing the mouth size. As shown the placemnt next to the wall will give a 2x multipier of the mouth size, ifnyoufipped it vertically, you would also have the floor to give 4x, turn the mouth into the corner and you get 8x.
dave
Smooth curves are usually counter-productive, and consideraby harder to build.
You should alsoconsider loading the mouth into the corner to extend the bass by maximizing the mouth size. As shown the placemnt next to the wall will give a 2x multipier of the mouth size, ifnyoufipped it vertically, you would also have the floor to give 4x, turn the mouth into the corner and you get 8x.
dave
Last edited by a moderator:
Your room dimensions will boost 79 hz and 34 hz due to the hard walls. The gabled roof may suppress that echo enough to not boost that frequency.
Before spending money to reproduce 12000 - 20000 hz, test your hearing. Most western males over age 12 cannot hear above 7000 hz. Buy a mid-priced headphone ($50?) and a even amplitude test source. If you can't hear it, only your grandchildren that haven't discovered fireworks yet could hear the high frequencies.
Wavelength of 130 hz is 2.6 m. If you could restrict the bass horn to 90 hz, you would only need one.
I find the double mid horns a bit fussy. I have 1 dimension horn cabinets, 52 cm front, 30 cm back, flat top & bottom. They manage to spray 54-1800 hz only 6 db down over 90 deg horizontal 40 vertical from a 38 cm woofer. As a result I can walk anywhere in my 4.3 m x 11 m room and the sound does not change. I do have a lot of furniture+instruments to break up standing waves. The CD tweeters in horns match the dispersion spec to 17.5 khz. I can only hear to 14 khz.
I find the "warmth" of vacuum tubes to be a big misunderstanding. When tube guitar amps are red plated, run too hot, they do emphasize the mids and roll off highs & lows with a pleasing kind of distortion. Preamps typically do not red plate the tubes, which are usually 12AX7 and not the kind of tube that produce the sort of effect anyway. You want warmth, overdrive 6L6 tubes. My PAS2 preamp with 12AX7 is as clinical and accurate as my 33078 op amp disco mixer (heavily improved over OEM), but uses 100 times the electricity.
There are at least 3 kinds of "crossover". Passive ones are built of coils capacitors and resistors. Woofers can be easily damaged by <50 hz or <20 hz, and an electronic "crossover" appliance rolls off those frequencies at 24 db/octave cheaply, and also merge the sub frequencies of the 2 channels into one, for the sub amp. Both frequencies are controlled by knobs or switches. A high pass 50 hz filter built only of polyprophylene capacitors between amp and 8 ohm woofers costs about $200 or more. And that filter is only 6 db/octave. I have seen my woofers with Xmax of 0.9 mm jump 2 cm when I walked across my wood floor with the tone arm on the record, so I have been living dangerously.
If you want to experiment with crossover frequencies and have 4 or more amp channels, buy one or more graphic equalizers. They are about $60 used now, having been replace by DSP. DSP require a phone or laptop to control, and I am afraid one would become obsolete before I finished my project as software gets updated every year. An omni microphone and soltware like REW can help you study what is going on in your room.See room forum. If you really like the weebly concept for the mid horn, build only 2 and study your results before you determine you need the other two. Your hard walls may reflect the mids around enough that the second two mid horns are redundant.
Happy building and later listening!
Before spending money to reproduce 12000 - 20000 hz, test your hearing. Most western males over age 12 cannot hear above 7000 hz. Buy a mid-priced headphone ($50?) and a even amplitude test source. If you can't hear it, only your grandchildren that haven't discovered fireworks yet could hear the high frequencies.
Wavelength of 130 hz is 2.6 m. If you could restrict the bass horn to 90 hz, you would only need one.
I find the double mid horns a bit fussy. I have 1 dimension horn cabinets, 52 cm front, 30 cm back, flat top & bottom. They manage to spray 54-1800 hz only 6 db down over 90 deg horizontal 40 vertical from a 38 cm woofer. As a result I can walk anywhere in my 4.3 m x 11 m room and the sound does not change. I do have a lot of furniture+instruments to break up standing waves. The CD tweeters in horns match the dispersion spec to 17.5 khz. I can only hear to 14 khz.
I find the "warmth" of vacuum tubes to be a big misunderstanding. When tube guitar amps are red plated, run too hot, they do emphasize the mids and roll off highs & lows with a pleasing kind of distortion. Preamps typically do not red plate the tubes, which are usually 12AX7 and not the kind of tube that produce the sort of effect anyway. You want warmth, overdrive 6L6 tubes. My PAS2 preamp with 12AX7 is as clinical and accurate as my 33078 op amp disco mixer (heavily improved over OEM), but uses 100 times the electricity.
There are at least 3 kinds of "crossover". Passive ones are built of coils capacitors and resistors. Woofers can be easily damaged by <50 hz or <20 hz, and an electronic "crossover" appliance rolls off those frequencies at 24 db/octave cheaply, and also merge the sub frequencies of the 2 channels into one, for the sub amp. Both frequencies are controlled by knobs or switches. A high pass 50 hz filter built only of polyprophylene capacitors between amp and 8 ohm woofers costs about $200 or more. And that filter is only 6 db/octave. I have seen my woofers with Xmax of 0.9 mm jump 2 cm when I walked across my wood floor with the tone arm on the record, so I have been living dangerously.
If you want to experiment with crossover frequencies and have 4 or more amp channels, buy one or more graphic equalizers. They are about $60 used now, having been replace by DSP. DSP require a phone or laptop to control, and I am afraid one would become obsolete before I finished my project as software gets updated every year. An omni microphone and soltware like REW can help you study what is going on in your room.See room forum. If you really like the weebly concept for the mid horn, build only 2 and study your results before you determine you need the other two. Your hard walls may reflect the mids around enough that the second two mid horns are redundant.
Happy building and later listening!
Last edited:
The Radian driver is NOT a good match with the Arai horn. This has been discussed at length in other threads.
I'd recommend a JBL 2450 instead, with either a Radian aluminium diaphragm, or a Truextent beryllium one.
I'd recommend a JBL 2450 instead, with either a Radian aluminium diaphragm, or a Truextent beryllium one.
From 20 to 130/140Hz...
The positioning is as suggested by the designer, but it can be changed...
turning the horns upside down wouldn't be a problem...
Place them resting on the floor a little yes, because both are higher than the width of the room, I should place them slightly diagonally, but it can still be done...
The 8pe21 can play MUCH higher than 600hz…….with the cones rib design, the sweet spot for it in my experience is 1k where it just so happens to be a better directivity match as well
I can only assume you’re using two of them for power handling due to the low crossover point……which I think is a big mistake……..8” does not a midbass make……this is a high power mid range driver IMO. If you can get those bass horns to play to 250hz, you’ll have a better performance result and more of a point source with only 1 8pe21………that would be my goal
……or……….adapt your 4 way design by adding a 15” midbass driver playing 100-400hz…….and IMO NOTHING a does midbass better or move more tactile air for percussive realism better than a 15.
I can only assume you’re using two of them for power handling due to the low crossover point……which I think is a big mistake……..8” does not a midbass make……this is a high power mid range driver IMO. If you can get those bass horns to play to 250hz, you’ll have a better performance result and more of a point source with only 1 8pe21………that would be my goal
……or……….adapt your 4 way design by adding a 15” midbass driver playing 100-400hz…….and IMO NOTHING a does midbass better or move more tactile air for percussive realism better than a 15.
Very good for the room, I was hoping it would help me...
It's been a while since I tested my hearing, a few years ago I was around 15KHz, now it's definitely worse... my question is whether the 2" driver reaches that far and still sounds good...
I don't like putting just one horn for the bass. I would like to keep the mirrored design, and in any case inlowsound guaranteed me linearity without any problem... in short, I would make 2 even if I could filter them at 90 Hz...
As for the double medium bass, I would like to have great dynamics and great speed, and given the small rear chamber of the horn, the result should come...
The "slap", according to inlowsound, is the best I've found on a horn for these frequencies, and that's exactly what I'm looking for...
The problem is having the same answer all over the room...
Would you have a project that encompasses all this, maintaining speed and dynamics?
The question of tubes interests me a lot... Black Ice also sells its devices without tubes, so I might get a pair of 6L6s separately...
However, if the heat can also be obtained via the DSP, I could choose a good preamp for example Rotel, I have two at home and I'm happy with them, even as a DAC...
The crossover is digital with integrated DSP, I would have it do everything... but I don't want to get a sound that is too cold or analytical, so I was thinking of inserting the tubes on the preamp...
What are the chances that the average trumpets can do everything in just two in your opinion?
I heard the jbl driver, with its diaphragm, and it didn't impress me...
Why do you say it's not a good match? From what I've read it's about some frequencies bouncing off the horn, isn't it possible to correct everything with DSP? What if you were looking for the Radian 850? Same problem? Some say it's even superior...
@mayhem13
Inlowsound told me that this driver is amazing, both as a result and as a slap...he crosses it with the spiral bass at 135Hz...
The reason I want to put two is to have the most equal response possible throughout the room, because it's very directional...
Other projects are also welcome...
The 4 way is not a problem, maybe something that covers from 90 to 250... any ideas?
Inlowsound told me that this driver is amazing, both as a result and as a slap...he crosses it with the spiral bass at 135Hz...
The reason I want to put two is to have the most equal response possible throughout the room, because it's very directional...
Other projects are also welcome...
The 4 way is not a problem, maybe something that covers from 90 to 250... any ideas?
yes...Faital Pro 15pr300 in a sealed box for midbass.......90-300hz ish would be fantastic. Run the B&C mids from there up to 1k and hand off to a 1" compression driver.....plenty to choose from at 1" and all with great response out to 18k or so.
Even if I added a route, I would like to make it common horn loaded, not other methods...
For the driver, however, I would like to keep the radian (which in the end is a 1.4 with a 2 adapter)...
A horn-loaded box? Maybe with a 30cm?
For the driver, however, I would like to keep the radian (which in the end is a 1.4 with a 2 adapter)...
A horn-loaded box? Maybe with a 30cm?
ok.......but IME experience, midbass is absolutely best served by a high Q sealed box........you want that impulse response for drums to stop on a dime......not the case with horn loading which relies on resonance.
That and to actually get any directivity function from a horn loaded midbass, the front loading would have to be huge.........i don't see ANY benefit either way other than if that bass horn spiral will play all the way up to 350hz...........then you can skip the 4 way/midbass option all together.......your link does show nice flat response for the bass horn to 350hz?
That and to actually get any directivity function from a horn loaded midbass, the front loading would have to be huge.........i don't see ANY benefit either way other than if that bass horn spiral will play all the way up to 350hz...........then you can skip the 4 way/midbass option all together.......your link does show nice flat response for the bass horn to 350hz?
Throat flare rate mismatch. And no, it cannot be fixed by DSP.
The oem ribbed Ti diaphragm on the JBL 2450 is not good in the top end, agreed.
Hence my suggestion for the drop-in replacement Radian Al dia (or even better, Be).
If you are fixed on the Radian driver, then I'd advise you to choose a different horn.
Driver and horn geometries have to match. You can't just pick any driver + any horn willy-nilly.
Driver and horn geometries have to match. You can't just pick any driver + any horn willy-nilly.
Ambitious goal. You will receive much (potentially conflicting) advice. Do not expect 20Hz from any horn that fits inside the room. Your (large) room is a benefit to going lower, though--you are lucky. If you build different (larger) horns effectively to become most of the end-wall (like an entertainment center), you can likely get high-30's Hz in that room. For separate "portable" basshorns, 40's Hz is more reasonable in-room after the room has it's way with it. Take a look at Bjorn's basshorn pages for wisdom in application. If you can build the horn outside of the room and blow-out mouth areas in the end wall, you could aim for first-octave bass.
My best input would be to find someone that has done what you seek and follow their recipe to the letter--or be prepared for a staggering amount of development work (or labor of love) if you deviate. Hey--if it's fun, be prepared for it to take years--it might--life always interrupts 4-way horn development 🙂. I'd start with the 8pe horn and add the top bits to that. Use anything for LF while you sort-out the top. The basshorn will be work.
My best input would be to find someone that has done what you seek and follow their recipe to the letter--or be prepared for a staggering amount of development work (or labor of love) if you deviate. Hey--if it's fun, be prepared for it to take years--it might--life always interrupts 4-way horn development 🙂. I'd start with the 8pe horn and add the top bits to that. Use anything for LF while you sort-out the top. The basshorn will be work.
Last edited:
That Radian in that horn is indeed not a good id. I would rather use a dual conventric CD like the B&C 464. Joseph Crowe can make a suitable horn for that (or sell you the cad files if you want to do that yourself). He uses the ES-600 horn, measurments are on his sit of that combo. This is a way better fit than what you want to use. And there are more like that. The B&C horn itself is also very good. I know also people who use it with a Yuchi horn good to 300Hz (that CD goes that low with ease). I actually think it would be better to cut lower so you can use your midbass and subbass horns in a smaller frequency range. The sound will be better.
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/b-c-dcx-464-16-with-es-600-biradial-horn
https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-files-for-es-600-bi-radial-wood-horn-no-1978
And there are more coaxial CD's arround, like those from BMS. I would prefer the B&C, but the BMS coaxes are also very high rated by most.
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/b-c-dcx-464-16-with-es-600-biradial-horn
https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-files-for-es-600-bi-radial-wood-horn-no-1978
And there are more coaxial CD's arround, like those from BMS. I would prefer the B&C, but the BMS coaxes are also very high rated by most.
Given the dimensions of that horn I'd expect to cross above 2kHz for best performance.
Cutoff is a horn term. It doesn't indicate where you can use it. The number describes the flare rate. Using a horn at cutoff would normally be avoided.
If you are tending towards using DSP go for a big Unity style horn you can build into the corners since you will need DSP with a Unity unless you are a passive crossover wizard. Once you hear a horn speak with one voice ... I am assuming you are going to build this yourself?
With a large enough UNITY you may find there is no need for a separate sub. Go big with four woofers in each assembly.
And if you need one it can be for the bottom octave only and very well could be handled better with numerous sealed boxes.
Consider the Celestion Axi-periodic.
I have been very pleased with a setup based on the KLISPCH K402 (cask05) - wish I was brave enough to build a big conical for myself. My room corners are compromised by entry ways. You do not have that problem.
Had a multiple horn assemblage before that took up lots of room and could not come close to what I am hearing now. I used Inlow's paper mache horns. Lovely things but they are are sonic laser beam generators. Mr. Inlow is one of the finest people I have had the pleasure to do business with.
With a large enough UNITY you may find there is no need for a separate sub. Go big with four woofers in each assembly.
And if you need one it can be for the bottom octave only and very well could be handled better with numerous sealed boxes.
Consider the Celestion Axi-periodic.
I have been very pleased with a setup based on the KLISPCH K402 (cask05) - wish I was brave enough to build a big conical for myself. My room corners are compromised by entry ways. You do not have that problem.
Had a multiple horn assemblage before that took up lots of room and could not come close to what I am hearing now. I used Inlow's paper mache horns. Lovely things but they are are sonic laser beam generators. Mr. Inlow is one of the finest people I have had the pleasure to do business with.
All the old men that run the music committies at the churches I have played and sung at are deafer than posts. They believe the salesman in a suit that sells Yamaha pianos & sound systems that their consoles, baby grands, and PA speakers are the best. No Yamaha piano but the 11' grand has proper highs. The contractor miked theYamaha console through the PA to Yamaha speakers up top. Voice only speakers IMHO, the highs were attenuated even more. They put a plastic shield behind the console to make sure none of the ugly highs that did exist made it to the congregation. The minister hunts game with shotguns & hounds, another prominent guy fishes from bass boats. I shot weapons in the US Army but they trained me to use earplugs, EAR brand to be exact. My hearing last tested to 14000 hz. The music committee gave away the 1950's Baldwin Acrosonic 40 console, because there was a small scar on the front. I went one summer to refinish that piano. The gym people had 14 tables stacked up against it.
Other males I have worked with and done projects with, nearly all have run a gasoline chain saw. Most have shot firearms. Without ear plugs.
As for my piano, I own a Sohmer 39, 1982. Also a 1940 Steinway 40 console. Both beautiful highs, to the top note.
Other males I have worked with and done projects with, nearly all have run a gasoline chain saw. Most have shot firearms. Without ear plugs.
As for my piano, I own a Sohmer 39, 1982. Also a 1940 Steinway 40 console. Both beautiful highs, to the top note.