My system:
Source: Android phone digital audio with usb/coax converter SMSL PO100 pro
DSP: helix dsp.3s
Amplifier for woofers and sub: crunch gtx4800
Amplifier for mids and tweeters: helix g four
Subwoofer alpine
Woofers Hertz C165 (doors)
Mids Audison Av 3.0 (A pillars)
I had the tweeters hertz C26 which after a while started to distort audibly, so I replaced them with Audison AP1 to exclude that the distortion was coming from the amplifier. They sounded good so I kept them for about 6 months but now they are slowly starting to distort like the hertz C26. I measured the rca outputs of the helix and regulated the gains of my amplifier with the oscilloscope so I exclude they never reached clipping. I guess those tweeters simply does not have enough power handling for the amplifier and for my volume of listening.
So I'm looking for suggestion for buying a new pair of tweeters with a bit more of power handling. It is difficult to choose a pair of tweeters without being able to listen to them... The budget is around 100-150... Any suggestion? I was tempted to try the audison av1.1 only because they are from amazon and easy to return if I don't like it. But there are a lot of other brands... Any suggestion?
I will cross them around 3.5-4 khz/24db
Source: Android phone digital audio with usb/coax converter SMSL PO100 pro
DSP: helix dsp.3s
Amplifier for woofers and sub: crunch gtx4800
Amplifier for mids and tweeters: helix g four
Subwoofer alpine
Woofers Hertz C165 (doors)
Mids Audison Av 3.0 (A pillars)
I had the tweeters hertz C26 which after a while started to distort audibly, so I replaced them with Audison AP1 to exclude that the distortion was coming from the amplifier. They sounded good so I kept them for about 6 months but now they are slowly starting to distort like the hertz C26. I measured the rca outputs of the helix and regulated the gains of my amplifier with the oscilloscope so I exclude they never reached clipping. I guess those tweeters simply does not have enough power handling for the amplifier and for my volume of listening.
So I'm looking for suggestion for buying a new pair of tweeters with a bit more of power handling. It is difficult to choose a pair of tweeters without being able to listen to them... The budget is around 100-150... Any suggestion? I was tempted to try the audison av1.1 only because they are from amazon and easy to return if I don't like it. But there are a lot of other brands... Any suggestion?
I will cross them around 3.5-4 khz/24db
The mids will go much higher than 4k, why not cross the tweeters higher?
Just because you're not driving the tweeter amp to clipping, that doesn't mean that you're not over-driving the tweeters.
There are limiters that you could insert into the tweeter line. Some are simple PTC thermistors that will limit the power when they are driven hard.
Have you thought about making an indicator that would light an LED when you reached a given level driving the tweeter?
Just because you're not driving the tweeter amp to clipping, that doesn't mean that you're not over-driving the tweeters.
There are limiters that you could insert into the tweeter line. Some are simple PTC thermistors that will limit the power when they are driven hard.
Have you thought about making an indicator that would light an LED when you reached a given level driving the tweeter?
I never heard of power limiters to the tweeters (only filter capacitors), I feel like in a properly tuned system it should not be required... I do turn up the volume a bit sometimes, but I never listen at crazy volumes (even though I use them about 2 hours per day), a tweeter should easily handle that power. But the C26 and AP1 are the entry level line of hertz and audison, I feel like they are meant to be used with the OEM car radio, maybe listening for too long with that amplifier is pushing them to the limit?
About the crossover, yes, probably I should cross them higher. The mids have a nasty peak at around 4.5khz, when I do a sweep it seems like a cone breakup to me. In the datasheet the cone breakup is at 6khz so I don't know if it is actually a cone breakup or not. I will have to some RTA and testing, but yes, probably I should cross them higher
About the crossover, yes, probably I should cross them higher. The mids have a nasty peak at around 4.5khz, when I do a sweep it seems like a cone breakup to me. In the datasheet the cone breakup is at 6khz so I don't know if it is actually a cone breakup or not. I will have to some RTA and testing, but yes, probably I should cross them higher
Or higher order crossover.
Is it just a simple capacitor or first order?
Allows to much low frequency to the tweeter for high SPL
For high SPL my mandatory minimum is 3rd order for tweeters.
Car audio price markups are ridiculous
I looked at the prices for the C26 in my region 135 dollars.
It is a basic neo tweeter, the small magnet and small chambers
make it excellent for easy mounting. Basic small chamber fabric dome.
Not being degrading towards you or decisions for purchase.
It is automotive mark up. Those tweeters are worth about 12 dollars.
Automotive likes to rate everything peak peak peak.
C26 Not 60 watt speakers more like 20 to 25 watt nominal.
Thermal rating is not the issue, physical damage from lower frequency.
Something like a titanium high power tweeter from Dayton like
likely be glorified to 100 watts. Its only 15 dollars.
"Car audio" price would be 100 dollars. 200 a pair
Is it just a simple capacitor or first order?
Allows to much low frequency to the tweeter for high SPL
For high SPL my mandatory minimum is 3rd order for tweeters.
Car audio price markups are ridiculous
I looked at the prices for the C26 in my region 135 dollars.
It is a basic neo tweeter, the small magnet and small chambers
make it excellent for easy mounting. Basic small chamber fabric dome.
Not being degrading towards you or decisions for purchase.
It is automotive mark up. Those tweeters are worth about 12 dollars.
Automotive likes to rate everything peak peak peak.
C26 Not 60 watt speakers more like 20 to 25 watt nominal.
Thermal rating is not the issue, physical damage from lower frequency.
Something like a titanium high power tweeter from Dayton like
Dayton Audio NHP25Ti-4
It is rated 40 watts, in car audio marketing rated peak would be 80 wattslikely be glorified to 100 watts. Its only 15 dollars.
"Car audio" price would be 100 dollars. 200 a pair
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It's just a matter of Z
put a 8Ω tweeter and it will suck half ( let's say ) of the power.
Adjust the crossover for it.
put a 8Ω tweeter and it will suck half ( let's say ) of the power.
Adjust the crossover for it.
It will suck half the power but sound half quieter, so I would adjust the input sensitivity in my dsp and it will suck the same amount
4khz/24db is already a lot beyond the typical crossover in a car
The hertz were crossed passively with the crossover that comes in their kit. The audison are filtered actively 4khz/24db, how can it be an issue of lower frequencies? This seems already an high crossover point. People with 2-way system cross them even at 3khz/12db
I would have expected to read that it would not match with midrange output for various reasons.
If you choose a 6Ω component, like a Scan Speak 95000, or a Morel , or a cheap CD like a Monacor HD 88, what happens?
I don't know, but the amplifier seems to support up to 4 ohm so the choice is kinda limited
Yeah, objectively the 4 and the 8 Ω voice coil differs from diameter and length of the wire. It's up to you to choose according to your taste. I would watch at the thermal dissipation of the two kinds ( longer wire with smaller section and shorter wire with larger diameter) and I would compare with a 16 Ω tweeter, if it exists...
Soft dome, with a little lower resonance than the ones you've been using (1170 Hz vs 1500), and 200 watt short term power rating.
SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...stige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/
Similar to above, but aluminum
SEAS Prestige 27TAFNC/D (H1397) 1" Aluminum Dome Tweeter
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...tige-27tafnc/g-h1397-1-aluminum-dome-tweeter/
They don't come with mounting hardware, so you will have to figure that part out.
The links above were just out of convenience, since I use Madisound's site often. SoundImports seems to have both in stock.
SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (H1396) 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...stige-27tffnc/g-h1396-1-textile-dome-tweeter/
Similar to above, but aluminum
SEAS Prestige 27TAFNC/D (H1397) 1" Aluminum Dome Tweeter
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...tige-27tafnc/g-h1397-1-aluminum-dome-tweeter/
They don't come with mounting hardware, so you will have to figure that part out.
The links above were just out of convenience, since I use Madisound's site often. SoundImports seems to have both in stock.
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Funny how I read your comment right after buying this exact same tweeter (soft dome, since the aluminum is not available for fast shipping). I will try them and report.
Ok the midrange has a active filter. But the tweeter is using included crossover.
So what order crossover is the tweeter, if it is just a capacitor then only first order.
Doesnt matter if they are rated 40 or 80 watts, most tweeters have 1mm coils and they are still
1" cone surrounds. So expect physical damage at high SPL with low order crossovers.
They dont exceed thermal ratings, they exceed physical movement.
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Sorry, I explained myself wrong. I was running the hertz kit (wf + tw) totally passive, with their included crossover (I think it is 2.5khz/12db). When I swapped them with the audison ap1, I also added the midrange and the dsp for doing active filtering and crossed them at 4khz/24db. I mentioned both of them because I feel like they failed the same way. At the beginning, they both sounded good. But then slowly over time they started to distort. Not much to be honest but it is audible and a little annoying. Of note, the distortion that I hear now is not volume-dependent. In fact I call it "distortion", but I'm not sure if it is the correct word. The sound is not crisp as it was when I first mounted them, it is "crackling"
Yes "crackling" is physical damage.
And yes damage over time is nothing new.
I have heard these stories many many times.
Actually Heard it many many times, after hearing and installing hundreds of systems.
Since many of these tweeters are highly highly over rated thermally
We have to get down to the real actual thermal rating which is usually either 25 watts or 40 watts.
And again its more about filtering because all of them wont have coil length over 1mm
And most of them plain old fabric tweeters with very similar suspension.
It is better yes to have 40 watt thermal for heat. But otherwise they all reach physical distortion
and the same old levels. And the same old physical damage at high SPL
Excluding the fact we dont know mounting distances. And there could be huge dips in the frequency response.
So when you add DSP correction, it very well could be boosting the heck out of the bandwidth that is already ruining the speakers.
And yes damage over time is nothing new.
I have heard these stories many many times.
Actually Heard it many many times, after hearing and installing hundreds of systems.
Since many of these tweeters are highly highly over rated thermally
We have to get down to the real actual thermal rating which is usually either 25 watts or 40 watts.
And again its more about filtering because all of them wont have coil length over 1mm
And most of them plain old fabric tweeters with very similar suspension.
It is better yes to have 40 watt thermal for heat. But otherwise they all reach physical distortion
and the same old levels. And the same old physical damage at high SPL
Excluding the fact we dont know mounting distances. And there could be huge dips in the frequency response.
So when you add DSP correction, it very well could be boosting the heck out of the bandwidth that is already ruining the speakers.
I already understand the first system had 1st order filter.
Already understand now the second system had included 12 dB crossover.
Likely set too low.
Again for high SPL 18dB to 24dB tweeter crossover is mandatory.
The tweeter should be absolutely as close as possible to the midrange.
typical mounting of the tweeter in " pods" over 100mm to 200mm away from the mids
in many traditional audio installs is a absolute failure.
Makes a huge dip in response.
Add abundant EQ to fix it, You have the ever so typical blowing up tweeter syndrome
in many may car audio installs.
To the ridiculous point where they start mounting pro audio horns, again a million miles away from the mids.
To stop blowing tweeters with tons of EQ fixing the poor response. Just to hear a distorted compression driver
on the edge of dying, but finally not dying.
When all they needed was a 40 watt tweeter, mounted close as possible to the mid with a 3rd or 4th order crossover.
Correctly designed to not have a huge response dip.
Already understand now the second system had included 12 dB crossover.
Likely set too low.
Again for high SPL 18dB to 24dB tweeter crossover is mandatory.
The tweeter should be absolutely as close as possible to the midrange.
typical mounting of the tweeter in " pods" over 100mm to 200mm away from the mids
in many traditional audio installs is a absolute failure.
Makes a huge dip in response.
Add abundant EQ to fix it, You have the ever so typical blowing up tweeter syndrome
in many may car audio installs.
To the ridiculous point where they start mounting pro audio horns, again a million miles away from the mids.
To stop blowing tweeters with tons of EQ fixing the poor response. Just to hear a distorted compression driver
on the edge of dying, but finally not dying.
When all they needed was a 40 watt tweeter, mounted close as possible to the mid with a 3rd or 4th order crossover.
Correctly designed to not have a huge response dip.
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