Peter Moncrieff at IAR was the first to publicize directionality in audio back in the 70s. Of course, wound film capacitors are directional due to the shielding effect of the outer foil. But neither Peter nor anyone else has offered a mechanism for single conductor wire when used for AC signals.
It’s not rocket science to figure out why wire is directional in BOTH DC and AC circuits. It’s strictly logic. It’s a mistake in logic to conclude or assume wire cannot be directional for AC circuits because electrons move in both directions. As I’ve already pointed out, all or almost all audio circuits are AC, furthermore AQ AudioQuest and some others, Goertz & Anti Cables for two, control directionality for all manner of audio cables and cords, they’re all directional for the wire itself. So, the wire in the capacitor is directional. Same for fuses. As I’ve also pointed out, cable shielding there is a separate issue. Both issues should be controlled by the manufacturer for best results. Sadly, as I also intimated previously, since all wire is directional, then AUDIO SYSTEMS have a very long way to go before all cables and wiring, FUSES, XFORMERS, ETC. are in the correct orientation.
Furthermore, AQ in particular provided the specific reasons for wire directionality, that wire drawn through dies is made to be physically and electrically unsymmetrical. That’s the short answer. That’s why there’s a small difference in voltage drop (resistivity) across a fuse when it’s measured in both directions.
“What we believe is largely the result of conditioning.” - audiophile axiom, with thanks to Aldous Huxley. Once the committed skeptic reaches his conclusion there’s nothing that can change his mind.
Furthermore, AQ in particular provided the specific reasons for wire directionality, that wire drawn through dies is made to be physically and electrically unsymmetrical. That’s the short answer. That’s why there’s a small difference in voltage drop (resistivity) across a fuse when it’s measured in both directions.
“What we believe is largely the result of conditioning.” - audiophile axiom, with thanks to Aldous Huxley. Once the committed skeptic reaches his conclusion there’s nothing that can change his mind.
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At some point I suggested that excess noise in cables related to the grain structure from drawing wire through a forming die could be directional. However, nobody has tried to measure for such an effect, at least not that I know of. Presumably if there was such an effect it would be pretty small.
https://www.google.com/search?q=gra...gBA8gBAPgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAH4QE&sclient=img
https://www.google.com/search?q=gra...gBA8gBAPgBAZgCAKACAJgDAJIHAKAH4QE&sclient=img
Not exactly.
The placebo effect comes later.
The placebo (not the effect, the placebo as a pill without a real drug inside) was created and is useful to test the efficacy and tolerability of a new drug.
The placebo effect is that one takes a pill to make a certain symptom go away, and if the pill does not contain a real drug inside then his symptom goes away the same.
With drugs the placebo effect has the above meaning.
In other words, the placebo effect is the same as "expectation bias", which certainly can exist.
It all comes from the fact that in controlled trials for a drug in single or double blind, a certain group of people are given the drug and another is given the same pill (if it is a pill, but it could be any other administration route) without the drug inside.
This is used to verify whether the results verified on the two groups are consistent with what was actually administered.
If the drug does not work related to a certain symptom, the two groups will present similar results, but if the drug works, the group of those who actually took it will present better results, just as rationally expected.
However, in reality it is not that simple because the so-called Child's error must be added (if I remember correctly its name) because nothing that man does is perfect and an error can occur in various parts of the treatment, which it must be said, can even last for weeks.
The interesting thing is that the groups that take placebos (of course, without knowing that) still show a certain amount of good results, as if the "drug" which was not actually in the pill had worked even without being present in the pill.
Please note that the Child's error has to be added also because maybe the symptom presence would have gone away (or reduced) in any case, even with no treatment at all.
Not so simple, then.
Even because, some people may not have a reduction in symptoms even if the drug is present in the pill, and regularly demonstrated effective.
No one has
Uh, that point has been discussed, the private electronics company hired by HiFi TUNING in GERMANY to measure ANY DIFFERENCES IN CONDUCTIVITY for fuses of various types, some HiFi tuning also other audiophile fuses and stock everyday fuses like Littelfuse or whatever. And some fuses cryod vs uncryod. As I just got through explainig, the physical differences in wire grain structure (distorted crystal structure) is produced by the wire being pulled through a die. So the grain structure looks somewhat like quills on a porcupine’s back. It seems to me electrics would travel more effepicirbtky in the direction of the quills vs the opposite direction, I.e., upstream. Furthermore, the data sheets from HiFi tuning specifically point out that the differences in sound cannot be explained completely by the differences in resistivity, which are very small but consistent. But it’s a smoking gun. As I also mentioned if you look at the data in the data sheets their math is wrong, the differences were actually smaller that they reported in the tables.
Except they didn't. HiFi Tuning (non capitalised) evidently wrote it themselves, using an unspecified piece of measurement equipment from GECOM Technologies.
What difference does the nationality of the equipment supplier make, and why does it require the name to be capitalised?
'Electrics'. Hmm. That'll be one of them there terms from natual philosophy about this electric fluid we keep hearing tell about? Mark my words, these new-fangled notions will come to a bad end.
Making a mighty effort to ignore the terminology, this is such utter drivel it's hard to know where to begin, since in AC ('Alternating Current', the clue being in the name) the current, amazingly, alternates. There is no 'upstream' or 'downstream'. This is not a matter of debate.
The pdf you link to is not a 'data sheet'. A data sheet is a file or printed copy by a manufacturer providing specific physical and electrical properties, usually including dimensioned drawings, material lists etc., often with ratings and type approval. The pdf you link to is an advert written by HiFi Tuning to help sell their own product. You don't find many manufacturer 'data sheets' without basic data, but including comments on other products, multiple uses of red text to highlight expensive items and unsupported opinions with points of admiration freely used. You don't find many 'tests' like that either. 😉
They state an opinion on the above in a paragraph entitled 'measurements' -an immediate oxymoron. And since there is no evidence of multiple tests, it's mysterious to know where you're getting the 'consistent' claim from, unless you have further data you have forgotten to provide.
Semantics and auto spellcheck issues.the reason I said the tests were consistent is because the fuses, ALL the fuses, always sounded better when the lower voltage drop is in the direction “toward the speakers” with the fuses were installed. Consistent is my word based on the data in the data sheets. The multiple tests term I used because they tested multiple fuses, both directions, and also test for fuses cryod vs uncryod.
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That is not at all how electricity works. Electricity is an electromagnetic field. the electrons don't go anywhere. It's kind of like a crowd wave at a football game. The people in the stands don't go anywhere but the wave goes around the stadium.
It’s the moving electrons (charged particles) in the conductor that produce current. Current is a calculated quantity and a scalar quantity. Neither electrons or current is an electromagnetic field. Having said that, there are electric fields involved, but they lie outside the conductor, they are the induced e and b fields. Induced by the current and voltage. The drift electrons, the ones I’m referring to, travel inside the conductor at very slow speed 1 m/hour back and forth in the conductor in AC circuit alternating direction according to the instantaneous audio frequency. Get thee to a library pronto!!
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people talk about the placebo effect like it's a bad thing. placebos can help, expectation bias can help
they help by adding to the experience, people who are positively 'biased' enjoy the expereince more
of course in a lab or test setting, bias isn't good but the rest of time, it's ok
some of the audiophile 'experience' comes from shock and awe
me, I use the placebo effect to my advantage all the time by hyping myself up, there's nothing wrong with that if the object is to increase enjoyment and engagement
things are not always black and white
they help by adding to the experience, people who are positively 'biased' enjoy the expereince more
of course in a lab or test setting, bias isn't good but the rest of time, it's ok
some of the audiophile 'experience' comes from shock and awe
me, I use the placebo effect to my advantage all the time by hyping myself up, there's nothing wrong with that if the object is to increase enjoyment and engagement
things are not always black and white
@geoffkait - you say this is not "belief-based", but based upon facts and scientific study, if I understand you correctly.
So, where is the study showing that any one single human could reliably and consistently over randomness discern an audible difference let alone a consistent preference for directionality in a fuse in a mains AC line? That's what it would take for me to begin to even remotely believe this phenomena is probable. You keep claiming "directionality" is audible. I've actually spent some time looking, and I don't find one single paper / study on the subject (in fairness either refuting or supporting it).
Where's the evidence? The "data sheet" you posted is suspect at best, blatant biased advertising at worst in my opinion. To me, it's the manufacturer / seller saying "trust me, pal, you'll love it" with a wink and a nod. Even if I wanted to believe the claims based on faith alone (and I don't), there is no citation for the study of audibility of the changes (that I saw).
Kindly point toward / link to any reputable paper or study noting the audibility of the changes with those fuses in standard application. Some person saying that they heard a difference will not cut it. If a person did hear a difference, (within the context of this thread) it could easily be a placebo effect / expectation bias / confirmation bias / random. Without knowing how the study was conducted, we have no idea.
They've clearly convinced you. Is that the only evidence it took to convince you? Not saying that's a bad or a good thing. No judgment. You seem to believe in this quite strongly, and I'm curious what led you to such a strong belief.
So, where is the study showing that any one single human could reliably and consistently over randomness discern an audible difference let alone a consistent preference for directionality in a fuse in a mains AC line? That's what it would take for me to begin to even remotely believe this phenomena is probable. You keep claiming "directionality" is audible. I've actually spent some time looking, and I don't find one single paper / study on the subject (in fairness either refuting or supporting it).
Where's the evidence? The "data sheet" you posted is suspect at best, blatant biased advertising at worst in my opinion. To me, it's the manufacturer / seller saying "trust me, pal, you'll love it" with a wink and a nod. Even if I wanted to believe the claims based on faith alone (and I don't), there is no citation for the study of audibility of the changes (that I saw).
Kindly point toward / link to any reputable paper or study noting the audibility of the changes with those fuses in standard application. Some person saying that they heard a difference will not cut it. If a person did hear a difference, (within the context of this thread) it could easily be a placebo effect / expectation bias / confirmation bias / random. Without knowing how the study was conducted, we have no idea.
They've clearly convinced you. Is that the only evidence it took to convince you? Not saying that's a bad or a good thing. No judgment. You seem to believe in this quite strongly, and I'm curious what led you to such a strong belief.
Nobody had noted here that with bi-wiring is possible to use different cables for tweeter and bass. For tweeter can be used small cross section area and low series inductance cables, for bass big cross section area cables with low resistance.
I have measured about 1 dB difference in response of tweeter at top end frequencies if comparing low series inductance braided cable and ordinary 2,5 mm2 cross section standard cable with about 3 m length from same amplifier.
I have measured about 1 dB difference in response of tweeter at top end frequencies if comparing low series inductance braided cable and ordinary 2,5 mm2 cross section standard cable with about 3 m length from same amplifier.
Geoff is a longtime proponent of fringe audibility beliefs. Why? Maybe in part because some, a few, of the things he claims to have audible effects may actually have such effects. That being the case despite him having being told by engineers that its impossible. So if he was told some real effects are impossible, then why trust engineers at all?
@kaameelis
I think sometime back earlier in the thread, we decided bi-wiring can probably have some small audible effect, as it might eliminate/reduce some of "shared impedance coupling/distortion."
I think sometime back earlier in the thread, we decided bi-wiring can probably have some small audible effect, as it might eliminate/reduce some of "shared impedance coupling/distortion."
If that was directed toward me (or even in relation to what I'd asked Geoff) ...
He's the one that refuted when I used the word "belief"...
There is a huge logical step between acknowledging the possibility of something and stating that it is categorically true based on data / facts.
He's been fairly adamant that what he believes to be is "true". I'd simply like to know how he came to such a conclusion; in HIS words, please.
I've never stated that he's wrong. I've said that we hold dissimilar beliefs. He bristled - stating something about religion or something.
So... if there are facts to substantiate the belief / truth, I'd like to be as informed as Geoff on this breakthrough.
Geoff is a long time well known character in audio forums. His now pretty much defunct website where he sold his wares still has a little content left: https://www.machinadynamica.com/
Also, don't necessarily expect people to tell you in their own words the real reasons why they believe what they believe. The human mind isn't that simple. Possibly you have never heard of post hoc construction:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869795.2017.1287292#d1e134
https://www.faculty.umb.edu/adam_beresford/courses/phil_281_11/reading_emotional_dog.pdf
Geoff may be able to give you reasons and explanations, but how do you know if they are constructions or something more substantive? Maybe he is more an inventive storyteller?
Why don't you ask him all about Schumann Resonance as it affects audio? Or maybe about purple felt pens? Controversial subjects, but on those points he might have heard something more or less real.
Also, don't necessarily expect people to tell you in their own words the real reasons why they believe what they believe. The human mind isn't that simple. Possibly you have never heard of post hoc construction:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869795.2017.1287292#d1e134
https://www.faculty.umb.edu/adam_beresford/courses/phil_281_11/reading_emotional_dog.pdf
Geoff may be able to give you reasons and explanations, but how do you know if they are constructions or something more substantive? Maybe he is more an inventive storyteller?
Why don't you ask him all about Schumann Resonance as it affects audio? Or maybe about purple felt pens? Controversial subjects, but on those points he might have heard something more or less real.
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^ Interesting.
Well, I suppose you likely know him much better than I. I was genuinely interested in how he came to believe what he believes. Rather than speculate, I generally ask. If he chooses to answer, I'll take him at his word. I have no reason to not believe him with regard to how he comes to any particular conclusion. What I asked for were documents / evidence to support how he came to such a belief. I can read that on my own to see if we may draw similar conclusions. If he has none or will provide none, then I am perfectly content with my utter lack of understanding re: "directionality" as Geoff understands it.
I am curious about his claim that was made in almost absolute terms that people (at least some) can hear when cables / wires / fuses are reversed and that the basis for this seems to have possibly started with an advertisement for fuses. I simply would like to know if that's the only evidence that went into supporting what I'd consider an outlandish claim, or if there is something I've clearly missed in my cursory research. Geoff doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would read that 'data sheet' and jump to the conclusion that all wires in a system should be oriented one way or another for best performance. If he did, no worries.
Well, I suppose you likely know him much better than I. I was genuinely interested in how he came to believe what he believes. Rather than speculate, I generally ask. If he chooses to answer, I'll take him at his word. I have no reason to not believe him with regard to how he comes to any particular conclusion. What I asked for were documents / evidence to support how he came to such a belief. I can read that on my own to see if we may draw similar conclusions. If he has none or will provide none, then I am perfectly content with my utter lack of understanding re: "directionality" as Geoff understands it.
Because I don't care about Schumann Resonance... or any of those other things. If you'd like to discuss it with him, be my guest.
I am curious about his claim that was made in almost absolute terms that people (at least some) can hear when cables / wires / fuses are reversed and that the basis for this seems to have possibly started with an advertisement for fuses. I simply would like to know if that's the only evidence that went into supporting what I'd consider an outlandish claim, or if there is something I've clearly missed in my cursory research. Geoff doesn't strike me as the kind of person that would read that 'data sheet' and jump to the conclusion that all wires in a system should be oriented one way or another for best performance. If he did, no worries.
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