Sure, there are coping mechanisms. But the point is that many people with age related hearing loss don't need frequency compensation if they turn up the volume. Depending on the particular loss, the volume might have to be turned up to unsafe levels, and or no volume level would be high enough. Some people will go completely deaf too.
However, any claim to the effect that everyone over 20 years old needs frequency compensation to hear hi-fi is simply not true.
However, any claim to the effect that everyone over 20 years old needs frequency compensation to hear hi-fi is simply not true.
FrankieS, please note that you posted a photo of the text you wrote so I can't quote it.
However, maybe I might do that if it wasn't currently the most recent post in the thread.
However, if possible, please let's refrain to attach a lot of scientific references that are of no use to anyone.
I was the first to avoid that because I know how certain disputes between members end up and I know for direct experience that even scientific references are of almost no use to many members.
So, while you two can of course continue your yourself discussion, please note that, as already said, the goal in this thread is not to achieve universal suffrage, which would be unrealistic to say the least.
In this thread, due exceptions have not only been foreseen, but also already accepted.
Given exceptions also pertain to honesty, which has already been discussed too, and which constitutes one of the primary essential requirements here.
However, maybe I might do that if it wasn't currently the most recent post in the thread.
However, if possible, please let's refrain to attach a lot of scientific references that are of no use to anyone.
I was the first to avoid that because I know how certain disputes between members end up and I know for direct experience that even scientific references are of almost no use to many members.
So, while you two can of course continue your yourself discussion, please note that, as already said, the goal in this thread is not to achieve universal suffrage, which would be unrealistic to say the least.
In this thread, due exceptions have not only been foreseen, but also already accepted.
Given exceptions also pertain to honesty, which has already been discussed too, and which constitutes one of the primary essential requirements here.
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Getting back to the subject of preference or skill, both are possible. In the field of perceptual testing there are tests for preference, and there are other tests for discrimination (which is sometimes a function of skill). For example, ABX is only for discrimination.
hi, dear Markw4, what I wanted to say only initially is that the technical part (amp, etc.) doesn't need to conform to Hifi norms anymore, because the hearing disability with advancing age (and rather early) degrades by a much greater extent than hifi sound inconsistencies. to subjectively or professionally 'function' satisfactorily is a different story, though. Still I believe that a 60 year old audio engineer on average will be handicapped on his job, even with much experience. However technical tools (visual audio analysis support and even hearing aids) could improve to some extent the deficits.
Sure but over 60 , which is the medium age here , certainly
and here comes the point what do we talk about if most of us have "deficient" hearing , known or unknown , deni or not 😳
and by "deficient" hearing I include al the cognitive bias that add themself to the earing process
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Quick one, I've had some hearing loss in right ear on high mids. It's already 20years I got it measured and remember it was something dramatic, like 10-20db dip and its quite apparent if I close one ear and just listen with the other.
Somehow both ears open everything sounds normal. Headphones and stereo speakers have phantom image on the center with very little deviation if I try third octave band balancing, perhaps my brain relies more on ITD than ILD. Measurably balanced high treble sounds balanced to ear as well. Anyway, there seems to be no harm of it and brains seems to have adapted to it as it's unnoticeable. Although, it is impossible to AB test with hifi hearing so I don't know what I'm missing 😀 but I don't seem to be missing anything, i get great sounds.
Somehow both ears open everything sounds normal. Headphones and stereo speakers have phantom image on the center with very little deviation if I try third octave band balancing, perhaps my brain relies more on ITD than ILD. Measurably balanced high treble sounds balanced to ear as well. Anyway, there seems to be no harm of it and brains seems to have adapted to it as it's unnoticeable. Although, it is impossible to AB test with hifi hearing so I don't know what I'm missing 😀 but I don't seem to be missing anything, i get great sounds.
Thank you for the clarification 🙂
IME, mostly the equipment still needs to be very good even for someone who can't hear above 10kHz. That's because its not only about FR. Soundstage has a lateral localization component due to ITD (interaural time difference), which requires a high level of phase coherence between stereo channels. A person doesn't need 16kHz to localize via ITD, and, again IME, many systems do not reproduce it well. There is also the perception of soundstage depth. IME it is profoundly affected by something that is known but rarely measured, which is signal-correlated noise (mostly found in less than stellar sigma-delta dacs).
no provocation intended, for sure.
my main topic introduced was the discrepance between hifi or high end technical possibilities and age-related realities.
I can imagine well, that different position modes (subjective versus objective, empiric versus prospective scientific study results) can lead to endless or senseless discussions.
Knowing that 'scientific evidence' can have it own pitfalls, personally I do not feel that it will be helpful suppressing scientific evidence on this forum.
If my text(s) were not well received I apologize, however, and will try to avoid similar situations.
We should all be sceptical however towards individual empiric experiences and (possibly ill-performed) professional scientific studies.
my main topic introduced was the discrepance between hifi or high end technical possibilities and age-related realities.
I can imagine well, that different position modes (subjective versus objective, empiric versus prospective scientific study results) can lead to endless or senseless discussions.
Knowing that 'scientific evidence' can have it own pitfalls, personally I do not feel that it will be helpful suppressing scientific evidence on this forum.
If my text(s) were not well received I apologize, however, and will try to avoid similar situations.
We should all be sceptical however towards individual empiric experiences and (possibly ill-performed) professional scientific studies.
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This would show how much progress there is still to be made, how much knowledge we still do not have, and how much money is not spent at all on research into audio and even less into (sense of) hearing.
You and every ad agency this side of the Kuiper Belt.
Just kidding.
More seriously - instead of struggling to get consensus, better to just start listing your observations on audio.
Some of them have already done so, and with very interesting and experiential comments. 😉
Please note that I'm not at all struggling to get approval.
I simply have a vision on the matter, and when I deem it appropriate I'll add other related comments to those I've already posted.
I understand that not all the posts in a thread (in any thread) are read because I'm the first one who cannot always do it, but quite a bit has already been written.
You just seem impatient, but I don't care about it. 😉
I dont have them on hand , but there are tons of scientifics publication on that matter 😉
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There's no need to change the rules of the game, you just said "here": "which is the medium age here , certainly". 😉
And this is exactly the problem with most of your posts here. You refuse to acknowledge the science that is the basis for the equipment we use because you can't reconcile it with your personal perception of what you hear. So, instead you pretend it doesn't exist or is of no use.
Here is previous a post that you made:
"Yes, but this is not an Engineering Forum.
This is an Audio Forum."
But simply put, you can't have audio without the engineering behind it no matter how hard you try. They are clearly inseparable.
I wrote "change the cards on the table" and Google translated it like "change the rules of the game".
I just meant that there is no need to change the cards on the table, because you said that the average of 60 is here, that is, in this Forum, and I would like to see a reference to this statement of yours.
Edit to add that I'll wait until 30 minutes have passed so you can't edit your post anymore otherwise it all looks incorrect.
Anyway it doesn't matter anymore since your statement was a trivial deduction with no importance to me.
Frankly, I thought you were a more precise kind of person, if you know what I mean.
However, sincerely, no problem at all. 😉
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