Sidenote, as I have some experience with the Kartesian Mid120_vHE:
I have measured the halfspace efficiency more ore less in range of the datasheet FR, maybe a dB less or so but >=90dB @ 2,83V for a 8 Ohm driver. That is not bad. Well. if you operate the driver low on a very small baffle you have to substract the full 5-6 dB baffle step loss or better cross higher above or by use of the the bafflestep rise area.
Clement from Kartesian has confirmed that the driver was made for use max. 200Hz - 3000Hz with steep filters LR4-LR8 in big active threeways. My simulations with datasheet values show that the driver should be theoretically capable to deliver < 110dB peaks from >> 300 Hz upwards, without power compression considered. Strong drive and large coil give dynamic headroom - in practice, it might deliver a bit less but 1-2 dB more than ScanSpeak 12MU that was also mentioned and is also excellent. Somehow from the parameters and properties the Kartesian reminds me of a PA 5" mid like Sica 5M1,5PL or B&C 5MDN38, but shinked for one size number. Currently I use it 280~2700Hz LR4 active with a Bliesma T25A and Satori WO24P on a Hypex FA503. The woofer is obviously falling back behind the quality and avaiable dynamics of the mid-high unit. From my impression, if the mid gets filtered a bit higher > 380Hz or so the unit should be capable to serve a 2x8" - 2x10" or 1x10" -1x12" high-end woofer section. If you want more SPL from a small wide dispersing mid go for a Volt or Bliesma 3" mid dome but for > double the money and the need for even higher xover frequencies. The Kartesian has very ruggy FR above 3k, nothing for LR2 concepts, I would even not have the desire to tame that thing with a passive filter. That is an advantage of the Scan 12MU which FR behaves like a sheep in that area. For the Kartesian 2,7k LR4 active works nice with some equalizing, up to 3k the dispersion is also very wide. Due to the flat cone and hidden surround the reflections are minimized that results in very uncoloured sound when implemented correctly.
Kwesi, thanks, that is the kind of the response and experience I appreciate anytime, though it was not specifically about 12inch woofers.
My Kartesians arrived last week, Wom_165vMS, I am very curious to see the measurements and usability.
My Kartesians arrived last week, Wom_165vMS, I am very curious to see the measurements and usability.
Cool ! Seem to be a best seller, Would like to have your feelings and perhaps see measurements and evaluate performance in general, and how it could be compare to a SEAS U18 or a 18W/8534.
@profiguy ,
had you the chance to try the SB34SW -06 sub please ? I wonder at 200 hz cut off, sealed if good enough vs the weaker in the bass SB34RNX-L
I remember you used LT on this last in a sealed. I remember as well you told be below somewhat 100/200 hz the SB34 RNX (non L) woofer was as good sealed ?
Always about the WMTM or WMT ! I fear the Faital 12PR320 to be too short in the low end as the RNXL w/o EQ (active ot LT) . I do not need high SPL, and prefers eventually something sealed for my simple home needs (music not theater)
Sorry for the sligthy off topic
had you the chance to try the SB34SW -06 sub please ? I wonder at 200 hz cut off, sealed if good enough vs the weaker in the bass SB34RNX-L
I remember you used LT on this last in a sealed. I remember as well you told be below somewhat 100/200 hz the SB34 RNX (non L) woofer was as good sealed ?
Always about the WMTM or WMT ! I fear the Faital 12PR320 to be too short in the low end as the RNXL w/o EQ (active ot LT) . I do not need high SPL, and prefers eventually something sealed for my simple home needs (music not theater)
Sorry for the sligthy off topic
@diyiggy The SB34 SW version is only suitable for use up to 120 hz maximum. The suspension becomes noisy above that, specifically the surround going out of phase but also the spider resonances.
The SB34NRX75-6 sounds very good up and to about 200 hz. It has a similar suspension to the NRXL version, which due to lower Le has much cleaner midbass up to about 350 hz 2nd order.
The SB34NRX75-6 sounds very good up and to about 200 hz. It has a similar suspension to the NRXL version, which due to lower Le has much cleaner midbass up to about 350 hz 2nd order.
Hello,
12rs430 seems capable of more Spl than
I have an array of 4 bc 8ndl51, I correct the response, it is probably way enough...
12rs430 seems capable of more Spl than
SB34NRXL75-8, I just downloaded winisd files and simulated a sealed box.
Which speaker would you pick with a 8" BMS midbass (250-1400hz), 1" cd and horn if a subwoofer is used let's say below 60 or 90hz?I have an array of 4 bc 8ndl51, I correct the response, it is probably way enough...
I really wonder about that. Does one really want to use a 135g cone that high, and what about the low impedance ! I surmise he used it because the good Q/P in US and used two to adress the BSC. And anyway with 1.5 k Hz 100 db break up that means serious effort in the low pass of the upper woofer if used too much high ! 90.5 dB but 4 ohms, not so stellar (well less expensive there than a discovery with aluminium cone and fiber glass dustacap)
Does it make sens, really if one want to use a high End as the Isiris ?!
At this low speed I am seing this (i have two 5" per channel for a 12" wanted foundation) I am more in more thinking a bout WMMT or WMTM, both 3.5 ways.
Or finally as most of the 5" that is a good size for home fi and good sounding stage, something is hard to acheive with nothing in between with the 12" but the best drivers out there (Revelator perhaps, as even my NE149W-08are not confortable in the midbass snap area where most of the 12" are not so confortable perhaps as said. SB34RNXL seems a good choice if one can not affoard 11" or 12" from SS. But it needs lift in the lows.
One solution but perhaps a bad one if to use a sorta filler there between a real 12" or more subwoof and the 5" territory (>=250/300 hz) ?
As also maybe more active design due to the low frequencies and maybe the slopes. If I had a plate amps I'd like to try a 12" sub à la Dayton or SB Acoustic SW or SS, with a 12" PA à la 12PR320 or a PHL or a more classic 8" to 10" hifi driver ! But 4 ways are not confortables !
So one should ask oneself if the preliminary choice of driver is good enough ? 12"+ 6" + 1.3" a better choice (depending of the spl max wanted) ?
Or even a 12" open bafle as the woofer, something else below 100 hz and something else above 500 hz ? (meaning the uppers to be open baffle as well as far I understood = low spl).
I am going for a sealed 55 L neto after bracing witth the RNXL, because of my trade offs (SS too much expensive, no really found two 10" in push push cancelation that go as low and cheaper as well, plus the cabinet size is increasing.
But I always liked the low spl hifi loudspeakers that had 100 to 150 hz from relativly low size 5" or less in dual according the coherence of their sound. Certainly a too much simple deduction though related to the crossover !
More fair comparison would be between 8 ohm units, this way SS looks better. But then for price of one 32W you can buy two and a half SBs....
34NRXL looks like real sweet darling these days....with four of these in average sized room you can easily reach 20 Hz and 120 dB with very low distortion....
If you are an avid subscriber to the book of audio superstitions there will be trouble to be found everywhere.
I would suggest a read of the whole Isiris and follow on development threads. Jon Marsh spend more money than anyone else I have seen on expensive drivers and crossover components. He did not pick theses drivers for their low price.
Hi fluid,
Superstition is not in my brain software, I could make a university curse about what is epestimology, so I am not the good guy for superstition 🙂 . Lack of audio knowledge and time to go deeper, yes certainly. Monney also to make tons of loudspeakers and personall beliefs about wastes and ressources too.
That's true he tries for real a lot of drivers. I don' think it's about superstition to have doubt seing such (a sub) driver climbing so high. But sure the guy is comprtent designer. He is not the only one though and there is surely several approachs. JM uses over complicate passive crossovers about the number of parts. I liked very much how he dealed with Duelund form of filtering for the mid filler... Of course the copy of Avalon loudspeaker shape is clean.
Does he tried SB SB34RNXL-75 ? Not sure about that. I am pretty sure the price and aviability had something to see, did he try SS bass drivers ? I know he tried Wavecores and I surmise it was about sourcing aviability and Q/P approach at the end too (which can be discussed when you see the number of filter parts)
Anyway, I am sure it is a very good speaker. I am liking such things too, I think JG took SS drivers because of this part of the world, we know his loudspeakers sound very good : https://suesskindaudio.de/en/.
What I said is I can nott affoard two drivers per side as the Dayton or the SBAcoustics. One is possible, amlthough. Here in Europe SB Acoustic is more affordable than Dayton for these bass drivers. SS, no way, too much expensive for me. I wish two discovery 10" in push-push cancelation could do better than oe SB34RNXL, but not really when I asked to some good diy designers here.
Superstition is not in my brain software, I could make a university curse about what is epestimology, so I am not the good guy for superstition 🙂 . Lack of audio knowledge and time to go deeper, yes certainly. Monney also to make tons of loudspeakers and personall beliefs about wastes and ressources too.
That's true he tries for real a lot of drivers. I don' think it's about superstition to have doubt seing such (a sub) driver climbing so high. But sure the guy is comprtent designer. He is not the only one though and there is surely several approachs. JM uses over complicate passive crossovers about the number of parts. I liked very much how he dealed with Duelund form of filtering for the mid filler... Of course the copy of Avalon loudspeaker shape is clean.
Does he tried SB SB34RNXL-75 ? Not sure about that. I am pretty sure the price and aviability had something to see, did he try SS bass drivers ? I know he tried Wavecores and I surmise it was about sourcing aviability and Q/P approach at the end too (which can be discussed when you see the number of filter parts)
Anyway, I am sure it is a very good speaker. I am liking such things too, I think JG took SS drivers because of this part of the world, we know his loudspeakers sound very good : https://suesskindaudio.de/en/.
What I said is I can nott affoard two drivers per side as the Dayton or the SBAcoustics. One is possible, amlthough. Here in Europe SB Acoustic is more affordable than Dayton for these bass drivers. SS, no way, too much expensive for me. I wish two discovery 10" in push-push cancelation could do better than oe SB34RNXL, but not really when I asked to some good diy designers here.