I have been playing around with my recently bought factory new ESS heil tweeters. Other than the shipping cost and import tarrifs to my country being more than the tweeters themselves, they are absolutely great. They are airy, detailed, full, non fatiguing........BUT
Am I alone in feeling they need a tweeter? I am missing a certain "bite" in the top octave and feel due to their size they don't image all that well.
I was thinking of running 2 Heils per side with a small (super)tweeter sandwiched between them...crossed over at around 10khz 1st order. Either using the same wings (extending them up or down) or with its own horn(as small as possible)....
Added bonus would be a dipole tweeter but I am not ruling out monopoles.
Any tweeter suggestions? I was thinking of using a small neodymium 3/4 inch silk dome without faceplate (or 2 back to back out of phase)....but maybe there are better options?
Am I alone in feeling they need a tweeter? I am missing a certain "bite" in the top octave and feel due to their size they don't image all that well.
I was thinking of running 2 Heils per side with a small (super)tweeter sandwiched between them...crossed over at around 10khz 1st order. Either using the same wings (extending them up or down) or with its own horn(as small as possible)....
Added bonus would be a dipole tweeter but I am not ruling out monopoles.
Any tweeter suggestions? I was thinking of using a small neodymium 3/4 inch silk dome without faceplate (or 2 back to back out of phase)....but maybe there are better options?
The ESS AMT do not need a tweeter. At all. FR, dynamics, resolution, distortion, all excellent. If you want more bite, use drivers with more distortion and since adding soft domes already muddies the resolution, dispersion and phase, you are on the perfect way to do just that because these can't keep up in dynamics either. And be prepared to burn 10+dB of the AMTs spl.
If you want more bite, try horn tweeters (E: not soft domes in a horn or similar). But before that check if the AMTs are on ear height because the very tall diaphragm beams vertically significantly. If that's already the case, try to EQ them first.
If you want more bite, try horn tweeters (E: not soft domes in a horn or similar). But before that check if the AMTs are on ear height because the very tall diaphragm beams vertically significantly. If that's already the case, try to EQ them first.
Do not know what you have listened before but ess has excellent top octave. Try to equilaze it flat in the room to have more highs
2 AMT in series aren't louder than a single one, +3dB for double the surface area increase, -3dB for half the power each. And I really doubt that the horn is any louder at 10k and above, most horns drop off earlier and do not provide 10dB or more gain at 10kHz. Can you please link the dome and the horn?
You can add indirect tweeters to an existing design not changing the direct sound field.
So no problem in putting a tweeter facing upwards onto the box crossed at 10k and listen to it.
At these frequencies you cannot hear any phase but only how much energy is beamed into the room.
So no problem in putting a tweeter facing upwards onto the box crossed at 10k and listen to it.
At these frequencies you cannot hear any phase but only how much energy is beamed into the room.
That's actually not entirely true. You can hear very well the phase differences, esp. if you move a few cm. For an indirect radiating tweeter that doesn't matter though because the delay to the original impulse is great enough the ear/brain doesn't register it as wrong or faulty. So you are right but for the wrong reason. 😉
It does make a difference but it's hard to filter it since it has to be a mechanical filter, otherwise you eq the front too. I got much better results with a 45° back reflector to the ceiling (esp if the speakers were in front of a window) , 2x45° reflector to left and right or a multiple angles / height diffuser. The former was my favorite because it muddied the horizontal location of the voices the least and kept the tonal balance and room energy well).
Have you actually tried it? All you need to do is absorb the back wave has no effect at all on the front side. Very simple use a block of fiberglass in wall insulation. Works well low cost simple to try. A reflector just redirects the energy. The idea to to increase the ratio of direct to indirect. and reduce the reflected energy.
Rob 🙂
I tried this and preferred the sound with full dipole output. For great sound, the AMT is not close to front wall, and there is a good mix of diffusors, absorbers in the room. I thought my thing was great compression drivers in directivity horns.
I liked the result so much, I just ordered another pair of Heil AMT's to make Heil triple stacks 😎
OK it's all about preference and what works in your room I had the opposite result. I moved them out into the room as well. Funny you bring up compression drivers I like them with 100X100 or more so I tried the Heils. I liked them but dialed back the backside reflected energy. Didn't completely just attenuation.
To each their own!
Rob 🙂
That is a mechanical filter. But I would definitely not want to have fiberglass more or less open in any room I still want to live in.
YES!! That's the whole idea of using a dipole tweeter! You said yourself attenuating, not completely silencing it! The problem with any absorption material is that it will not attenuating it, it will absorb higher frequencies stronger.
It would be pretty stupid to silence the back of it if you could have used a different driver like a Beyma or Mundorf instead and not having a block of fibers which gives you cancer. And no, I won't rely on manufacturers specs about particle size.
Lol little to much drama there!
The thickness determines the range absorbed and absorption is attenuation. That's not bad from 800Hz and up.
| ASTM C 423 | ||||||
| Freq | 125 HZ | 250 HZ | 500 HZ | 1000 HZ | 2000 HZ | 4000 HZ |
| NRC | 0.84 | 1.24 | 1.08 | 0.97 | 0.97 | 1.15 |
Bass Traps work best in corners, however place absorption panels in any known reflection points. This ownes corning fiberglass also has excellent high and mid frequency absorption for full broadband absorption.
Rob 🙂
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You don't understand that's frequency dependent and not attennuation. Or in other words, that's not in the slightest linear.
Why so complicated? A simple V shaped wedge works nicely and only needs two boards.
I found this from a guy who apparently actually made diy heil inspired drivers for years.....:
”After I started making active speakers, I was able to use steep filters to cross over the Heil at a point where the tweeter started to become directional–around 5000-6000Hz for a 2″ by 3″ Heil. And that crossover fixes the imaging problem. Even a budget tweeter like those Audax 10mm polycarbonate drivers will help a Heil “disappear” and set up a much more spacious sound, with very good imaging. So that was the key: fix the directionality issues, and you can get both clarity and good imaging."
Whole article can be found here:
http://www.audiodevelopers.com/cylindrical_heil/
So without actually saying it this guy is kind of implying the heil is a midrange driver.
In my limited testing of the Heils a added tweeter gives more sense of space. On live concert recordings it is especially noticable....even when running just one mono channel. When you close your eyes it feels more like you are not in your room but in a large space or outdoor concert than with just only the heil. (tested woofer + heil and woofer + heil + dome or bullet tweeter.)
I would be interested to hear from others who have Heil tweeters if they ever tried adding a tweeter and what the results were.
I guess adding a Mundorf dipole tweeter to the Heils would be the ultimate combination.
”After I started making active speakers, I was able to use steep filters to cross over the Heil at a point where the tweeter started to become directional–around 5000-6000Hz for a 2″ by 3″ Heil. And that crossover fixes the imaging problem. Even a budget tweeter like those Audax 10mm polycarbonate drivers will help a Heil “disappear” and set up a much more spacious sound, with very good imaging. So that was the key: fix the directionality issues, and you can get both clarity and good imaging."
Whole article can be found here:
http://www.audiodevelopers.com/cylindrical_heil/
So without actually saying it this guy is kind of implying the heil is a midrange driver.
In my limited testing of the Heils a added tweeter gives more sense of space. On live concert recordings it is especially noticable....even when running just one mono channel. When you close your eyes it feels more like you are not in your room but in a large space or outdoor concert than with just only the heil. (tested woofer + heil and woofer + heil + dome or bullet tweeter.)
I would be interested to hear from others who have Heil tweeters if they ever tried adding a tweeter and what the results were.
I guess adding a Mundorf dipole tweeter to the Heils would be the ultimate combination.