Hello all , long time in the forum but never wrote or post something.
First of all forgive my bad English , maybe that can be the reason I haven’t interact up until now but it seems I’m in a “dead end” and I need a little help, even some guidance .
So I’m all Sansui enthusiasts and I’m running a 3way active set up with AU-X11 amplifiers and a CD-10 active crossover. All equipment is fully restored and are running smoothly.
My drivers are :
Tweeter : Scanspeak 28mm Dome D2905/97000
Midrange : Morel soft Dome EM 1308
Woofer( subwoofer as described in their website ) : Visaton 8” TIW 200 XS in 30Lt cabinet .
I want to “up” my game at the low end, god forbids I have no complain from the Visaton driver but I think I need a 10” woofer …..
The Visaton in the 30Lt cabinet is tight, full and precise even at the lower volume level , I’m looking for a driver that can perform a bit better and match the quality of the other drivers .
I can not go bigger than 50lt but my budget can be high , not because I’m a rich guy but building speakers is not hobby and most likely those speakers will follow me for the coming 10 years .
Any suggestions will be much appreciated and thank you in advance for that .
Again… sorry for my bad and poor English.
First of all forgive my bad English , maybe that can be the reason I haven’t interact up until now but it seems I’m in a “dead end” and I need a little help, even some guidance .
So I’m all Sansui enthusiasts and I’m running a 3way active set up with AU-X11 amplifiers and a CD-10 active crossover. All equipment is fully restored and are running smoothly.
My drivers are :
Tweeter : Scanspeak 28mm Dome D2905/97000
Midrange : Morel soft Dome EM 1308
Woofer( subwoofer as described in their website ) : Visaton 8” TIW 200 XS in 30Lt cabinet .
I want to “up” my game at the low end, god forbids I have no complain from the Visaton driver but I think I need a 10” woofer …..
The Visaton in the 30Lt cabinet is tight, full and precise even at the lower volume level , I’m looking for a driver that can perform a bit better and match the quality of the other drivers .
I can not go bigger than 50lt but my budget can be high , not because I’m a rich guy but building speakers is not hobby and most likely those speakers will follow me for the coming 10 years .
Any suggestions will be much appreciated and thank you in advance for that .
Again… sorry for my bad and poor English.
There is no need to apologize for your English. It is pretty good. And since the forum is English only, people understand that those in other countries have to work harder to deal with that.
Do you prefer a sealed enclosure for your woofer or ported? Or do you not have a preference?
Do you prefer a sealed enclosure for your woofer or ported? Or do you not have a preference?
Thank you Mats , much appreciated the encouragement!
I have no preference in sealed or ported, I like deep bass and if I can get that with sealed cabinet then fine by me and actually no need to worry figuring out the Bassreflex measurement. I’m not a sound engineer and I have no testing equipment to go deep in accuracy and my cabinet design will be solid and just nice to look at nothing complicated as I have no accessibility to great wood tools .
I have no idea why but I always believed that small enclosures for a 10” or higher size driver will always yell for Bassreflex .
I have no preference in sealed or ported, I like deep bass and if I can get that with sealed cabinet then fine by me and actually no need to worry figuring out the Bassreflex measurement. I’m not a sound engineer and I have no testing equipment to go deep in accuracy and my cabinet design will be solid and just nice to look at nothing complicated as I have no accessibility to great wood tools .
I have no idea why but I always believed that small enclosures for a 10” or higher size driver will always yell for Bassreflex .
Just a couple ideas,
Take a look at what this guy has done Meadowlarkaudio.com
He has developed several with a sealed design.
I’m not familiar with the CD10 active crossover but choice of driver may depend on flexibility.
Sbacoustics.com might be worth checking out
I agree your English is fine
Good luck
Take a look at what this guy has done Meadowlarkaudio.com
He has developed several with a sealed design.
I’m not familiar with the CD10 active crossover but choice of driver may depend on flexibility.
Sbacoustics.com might be worth checking out
I agree your English is fine
Good luck
Thank you Cris for taking the time.
“SB acoustics” looks like a good option
and especially the 6ohm
10” SB29NRX75-6 , I’m a bit concerned that is has a break below 1000hz and I will possibly need to cross with the midrange around 950hz .
“SB acoustics” looks like a good option
and especially the 6ohm
10” SB29NRX75-6 , I’m a bit concerned that is has a break below 1000hz and I will possibly need to cross with the midrange around 950hz .
The driver's preference for one enclosure type or the other is determined by its parameters (the way it is designed). Its size does not affect that aspect. Today, the trend is generally toward ported enclosures so it's a little harder to find woofers that naturally play very low in sealed enclosures.
For 10 inch sealed, I like this one (there's an 8 ohm version also):
Scanspeak Discovery 26W/4534G
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...very-26w/4534g-10-aluminum-cone-woofer-4-ohm/
It won't go super low, but it's a big improvement in bass weight/extension/sensitivity over any 8 inch I've tried sealed. My concern for it in your application would be the breakup region that gets serious around 2 kHz. Depending on how low your midrange can play and the slope you want to use, the 26w/4534G's breakup may be lower in frequency than you want.
For 10 inch sealed, I like this one (there's an 8 ohm version also):
Scanspeak Discovery 26W/4534G
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...very-26w/4534g-10-aluminum-cone-woofer-4-ohm/
It won't go super low, but it's a big improvement in bass weight/extension/sensitivity over any 8 inch I've tried sealed. My concern for it in your application would be the breakup region that gets serious around 2 kHz. Depending on how low your midrange can play and the slope you want to use, the 26w/4534G's breakup may be lower in frequency than you want.
According to the specs on the data sheet of the EM 1308 has fs:320hz so I assume by “rule of thumb” I can cross it around 700hz . Now I’m crossing the Visaton TIW200XS at 950hz with 18db slope (I have one more option on the crossover to choose a 12db slop) and it sounds just fine … in my ears in my listening space .
How about this one from scanspeaks :
https://www.scan-speak.dk/product/28w-4878t01/
Different price range to consider and unknown liter for the cabinet and Bassreflex size
How about this one from scanspeaks :
https://www.scan-speak.dk/product/28w-4878t01/
Different price range to consider and unknown liter for the cabinet and Bassreflex size
Forget that driver crossing that high. It Will get impressive High spl and deep in 30 liter volume.
Cross it no higher than 150 hz top. Higher than that it Will Sound muddy/thumpy.
Im sure there is plenty much better drivers around.
Better use is dedicated subwoofer.
That one breaks up even earlier than the 26W/4534G. The areas of random, large magnitude peaks and dips in frequency response are ones you normally want to avoid or suppress somehow. I don't think your crossover has any kind of parametric equalization feature, so it's not going to help you filter those specifically. You just have to rely on the crossover roll-off to suppress them enough to make them inaudible.
Your dome midrange is a limiting factor in this situation. It just can't play down low enough for many larger woofers to work well. Even some very highly regarded and expensive woofers have breakup behavior that won't let them play smoothly to high enough frequency to mate well with it. Another trend in recent years has been the push for harder/more pistonic cones and stiffer formers, glues, etc. They are very linear and responsive in the areas where they are behaving, but they often have more aggressive breakup and more chaotic roll-off than older, softer materials.
At 700 Hz and 18 dB per octave, I think you are far enough away from the 26W/4534G breakup to be OK. If you find another woofer you like that has mostly smooth frequency response up to about 2 kHz, it will likely be OK too.
It's worth keeping an eye on off-axis behavior also. The dome will have very wide dispersion at the bottom of its range, and the woofer will likely be narrowing there. A little mismatch isn't a big deal, but if the off-axis response is very chaotic or rapidly falling off, that is less desirable than matching the wider dispersion of the dome.
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Add another Visiton 8 in parallel with a 1st order coil in between to low pass it around 200hz…..a win win all the way around with higher efficiency, lower distortion and deeper extension.
ROT is at least -24 dB @ Fs, so 320*2^4 = 5120 Hz/1st, *2^2 = 1280 Hz/2nd, 2^1 = 640 Hz/4th. 😉
An objective 10" bench
https://www.justdiyit.com/grand-comparatif-de-10-pouces-partie-1/
The 26W4534G00 is an excellent quality price ratio.
https://www.justdiyit.com/grand-comparatif-de-10-pouces-partie-1/
The 26W4534G00 is an excellent quality price ratio.
Maybe it worth posting a photo of the crossover and its function ?
So as far as I understand a 3way speaker with dome midrange is almost impossible, personally I can’t find on the internet a woofer that breaks up above 2000hz.
I have the option to go 4way and I do have on hand and extra amplifier and the
8”Visaton AL 200 but then I assume that I will need to go with a 12” subwoofer; and that is impossible space wise ….Enclosure for 4way speaker and 4 amps in my listening space it will be overwhelming, so I really need to keep it tight .
As an amateur I need to ask how “they”achieve to make a two way speaker with a woofer and a tweeter and sound good enough to put it on the market and ask for high prises too?
So as far as I understand a 3way speaker with dome midrange is almost impossible, personally I can’t find on the internet a woofer that breaks up above 2000hz.
I have the option to go 4way and I do have on hand and extra amplifier and the
8”Visaton AL 200 but then I assume that I will need to go with a 12” subwoofer; and that is impossible space wise ….Enclosure for 4way speaker and 4 amps in my listening space it will be overwhelming, so I really need to keep it tight .
As an amateur I need to ask how “they”achieve to make a two way speaker with a woofer and a tweeter and sound good enough to put it on the market and ask for high prises too?
Attachments
Not impossible, but not as easy as some other approaches given today's woofers. You have to decide where the compromises make sense and where they don't for how you intend to use all the pieces.
GM's advice is good to protect the midrange, but some people get by with less roll-off at resonance. It depends on how loudly you want to be able to play the speakers and whether you or others are likely to get carried away with the volume knob at times. Also how much distortion you are willing to tolerate from the midrange.
And then how much you want to suppress the breakup region of the woofer. It's all a series of trade-offs. There are no perfect speakers.
This is a 10 inch that rolls off pretty gracefully. I don't have direct experience with it, but it looks like it might be interesting.
Seas Prestige A26RE4
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...s-prestige-a26re4-h1411-10-paper-cone-woofer/
They use it in a kit with just a tweeter, so your application should be easier comparitively.
https://www.seas.no/index.php?optio...eas-a26-kit&catid=66:seas-diy-kits&Itemid=345
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Truth is that I’m not playing loud , I’m not enjoying loud music any more and my listening space is not big. I can see that the driver above can handle 80W continuously and I think that I will not go that high very often or never .
The short answer to what I’m willing to compromise is as less as possible but I do understand that is going to be compromise with a dome midrange driver….
The short answer to what I’m willing to compromise is as less as possible but I do understand that is going to be compromise with a dome midrange driver….
Thank you Mat , what can be an approach? Maybe I’m able to “steer” that way ?
No experience with this one either, but the frequency response looks pretty good.
Satori WO24TX-8
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-woofers/satori-wo24tx-8-9.5-textreme-woofer-8-ohm/
Satori WO24TX-8
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-woofers/satori-wo24tx-8-9.5-textreme-woofer-8-ohm/
For no money, you can adjust your midrange's lower crossover point to about 700 Hz and 18 dB/octave. Give that a listen and see if the midrange handles it well given your typical music and playback levels. Listen to lots of different music over a few days. If you generally like the way that sounds, it gives you a little more flexibility in woofer options.
Or if you prefer to run the same 950 Hz cross point you are already using, I would suggest the SEAS A26RE4 or Satori WO24TX-8 (unless someone suggests something better). The choice here is mostly about whether you generally like older drivers or newer ones and whether you want to spend more money or less. The SEAS is more like a classic sealed box woofer in its design and materials. It's likely smooth and forgiving in its character. The Satori is modern, and quite a bit more expensive. It has a little better high frequency extension, but the roll-off is not as smooth. It is probably more resolving as well. With either of these, the woofer's the natural roll-off is likely to interact with the active crossover, so it might take some tuning to get that worked out. The SEAS claims to have a natural roll-off that will allow it to be used without a low-pass filter: that gives more options for how it is used.
Given that you have limited measurement/modeling abilities, I think the SEAS is probably the safer alternative if you want to cross to the midrange at a relatively high frequency.
When I'm working with a new driver, I normally buy one of it, put it in a cheap/fast/easy test box and listen to it with the other intended drivers. If I like it, then I'll design and build another better enclosure for it, buy the second driver, and listen to the pair extensively.
?????
How bout one that doesn’t break up at all?
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...s-prestige-a26re4-h1411-10-paper-cone-woofer/
Still think you’re waaaay better off with adding another 8…….for lots of reasons. If you plan on crossing to the mid in the 750hz region, you have to make compromises in the alignment and positioning to maintain the listening axis…..which will still be midpoint between the dome and the tweeter. To avoid lobing with a 10, you’lll need to keep the woofer close to the mid and then higher up so away from the floor…..no boundary reinforcement and likely more floor bounce and another bull somewhere.