Best 12" woofer for open baffle midbass?

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#62
I looked into some drivers at PE.
  • Taking an AE LO15 as reference for a very good OB 15" driver: has Sd of 855cm2 and costs $659.
  • 8x Dayton SD315A-88 12" (4 per side) cost $640 and have total Sd of 2091cm2 and allow a cutoff frequency of 250Hz.
  • 12x GRS 8PR-8 8" (6 per side) cost $180 and have total Sd of 1259cm2 and allow a cutoff frequency of 350Hz.
  • 16x GRS 6PR-8 6.5" (8 per side) cost $215 and have total Sd of 1120cm2 and allow a cutoff frequency of 420Hz. I´m using GRS Poly Cone Rubber line as reference since XRK used them but could go to a more expensive driver like Dayton DS215 or RS225 (price hikes to $650 and 815, respectively).

I´m leaning towards 8" to allow the xo around 350Hz. Something I´m missing?
Better options than Dayton DS215 or RS225?
 
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#63
FrankKW said:
I see you're in Argentina, so do not know what might/not be available, but Parts Express sells a house brand GRS, model 12SW-4 that is very inexpensive but solid performance, 2" VC, 0.82 Qts and 8.5mm xmax.
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Indeed, I´m in Argentina and I will need to import the drivers I choose. I looked at GRS (noted in post above) but I´m leaning more towards using 8" rather than 12". Yet I´m open to learning things I might not be properly taking into consideration in my decision!
 
#64
LewinskiH01 said:
I looked into some drivers at PE.
  • Taking an AE LO15 as reference for a very good OB 15" driver: has Sd of 855cm2 and costs $659.
  • 8x Dayton SD315A-88 12" (4 per side) cost $640 and have total Sd of 2091cm2 and allow a cutoff frequency of 250Hz.
  • 12x GRS 8PR-8 8" (6 per side) cost $180 and have total Sd of 1259cm2 and allow a cutoff frequency of 350Hz.
  • 16x GRS 6PR-8 6.5" (8 per side) cost $215 and have total Sd of 1120cm2 and allow a cutoff frequency of 420Hz. I´m using GRS Poly Cone Rubber line as reference since XRK used them but could go to a more expensive driver like Dayton DS215 or RS225 (price hikes to $650 and 815, respectively).

I´m leaning towards 8" to allow the xo around 350Hz. Something I´m missing?
Better options than Dayton DS215 or RS225?
Click to expand...
Nope…..the 8’s will get you there. Didn’t realize the Daytons were so much outside of the US……8 of em here in the US is $560
 
#66
LewinskiH01 said:
Indeed, I´m in Argentina and I will need to import the drivers I choose. I looked at GRS (noted in post above)
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The GRS 12SW-4 (subwoofer) I referenced is far more capable than the PR series woofers you referenced. Those have low xmax and higher Qts which is handy for passive systems, but yours is active. The more than double xmax of the SW gives it the edge at 70hz (and below) for your XO filter transition. A single one may be suffiecient for 70-400hz unless you need really high output. Your design of course, so was just a suggestion for an inexpensive option with high price/performance.
 
#67
mayhem13 said:
Nope…..the 8’s will get you there. Didn’t realize the Daytons were so much outside of the US……8 of em here in the US is $560
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The prices are from Parts Express in US. DS215 at $54 each buying more than 4. It seems you saw them at $46 each. Can I ask you where?

Would DS215 be much better than GRS 8PR for this application? RS225 does look significantly better, at a significant premium. Not sure if I'll hear the difference though.
 
#69
LewinskiH01 said:
The prices are from Parts Express in US. DS215 at $54 each buying more than 4. It seems you saw them at $46 each. Can I ask you where?

Would DS215 be much better than GRS 8PR for this application? RS225 does look significantly better, at a significant premium. Not sure if I'll hear the difference though.
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If you wanted to do a compact SLOB, GRS also makes a slim line 6.5" subwoofer with a very high QTS.......and they're less than $20 US each. each driver has a mounting depth of less than 2"!!!!!!.... You could do a 9"x9" SLOB with 8 per side
 
#70
ianbo said:
OK, I see. I'm now stumped, I'm afraid.

Maybe the Faitals just aren't right for this system, although I honestly can't see why that should be so.

But another possibility is that something in your measuring/equalising/playing chain is off. It's a very complex system, after all: miniDSP and Acourate, multi subs plus 3 way OB, with a range of different power amps. Getting all that to work together properly is a huge challenge! Sometimes with this type of setup you correct things that you ought not to be correcting, and get inferior results as a consequence. I've been there! Measuring open baffles accurately is particularly challenging, of course.

I'm actually moving away from DSP, in my own system, because of this type of problem. I've tried DSP-based systems repeatedly over twenty years, going right back to early Tact, then Lyngdorf, then PC based systems, and more recently DEQX. Time after time, I struggled to get the results I thought I should, and because of the complex nature of the process and the software/hardware, I always found it very difficult to work out the reasons.

Anyway, I apologise for the pessimism. I know that plenty of other people have success, and of course DSP is increasingly the norm, especially in pro audio. I've not totally given up - I still have some miniDSP and Hypex Fusion hardware, which I may use for bass/subs, at some point.

Sorry, I wish I could help more.
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Re the PC systems you mention, did you try Acourate or AudioLens ?
 
#71
LewinskiH01 said:
I had not looked into these. Thanks for the pointers. They look like very nice drivers. We're you thinking about them for SLOB or regular OB? A SLOB with these would become expensive.
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For OB, no : too much low spl, too much low Qts, too much low linear Xmax, and too much low low end target (70 hz).

Re read Juhazi thread and his pdf. At the wellthougth low cut off at 100 hz with a Beyma 12", the low end needed to be lifted (Minidsp system for him), iirc teh Xmax was around 7 mm but the spl better than a Dayton or SS which are hifi drivers .

You could have a little help from the baffle plan, but it becomes visually intrusive (tango situation with spoose if the system is in the living room).

Have you had a look on the other side of Iguazu : PRV drivers ... good reviews !
 
#75
LewinskiH01 said:
@diyiggy
I've taken the path of @xrk971 XSD bass section with 16x 6.5" per side in SLOB. I'm in the building process. Will be a couple of weeks out, but hope to be able to try it soon.

PRV has nice drivers, but difficult to get even in Brazil. I go there often for business.
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16!……nice!

With that many drivers per side, and if you did go active…..with some EQ you just might get into the 50hz region or even lower……crossing to a sub would be much cleaner.
 
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#78
mayhem13 said:
I’m building my own variation of this now using instead 4 12” drivers dual opposed slot loaded instead of the 6.5s. I don’t require high output midrange so my 8pe21 will be crossed at 250hz instead…..that works with the 12” slot acoustic LP. Footprint is a little larger than what you may be looking for using the 12’s……i‘m at 40cm square and 90cm tall including a very thick base.
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Mayhem,

this is very interesting, I am thinking of using the 8PE21 with the Heil AMT on top, and this could be a solution below that. 90 cm height is a bit more than what I would want in my small(ish) room. Would you think the smaller Dayton 10" SD270A-88 would be much different (4 a side too)? Do you know of any good 10" alternative?
 
#80
But you never will have bass with a 12" in OB but on an infinite baffle or low end boosting correction which is meaning low spl because the Xmax limits.
A 12" is certainly due to his diameter more intended for something starting at 80/100 hz at best; and at 80 Hz I wonder if you are not below the null already ?

From 100 hz the choice becomes bigger... The RNXL may suffice >100 hz with its 11 mm Xmax despite being relativly low Qts.
 
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