I'm looking for a more conclusive and proven approach of using an Apple Mac as crossover and DSP. There seems to be no industry-proven approach and the field is quite experimental, e.g. no established vendor offering this. What's the problem? I understood so far that software like CamillaDSP or Blue Cat’s MB-7 Mixer and hardware like dac8 PRO or MOTU UltraLite mk5 would be a good foundation. Would anyone share their experience especially in demanding studio, live and PA setups?
Background: We needed a sound system for festivals (100+ people) and I found very cheap 2 x JBL ASB6125 (32Hz-1kHz) and 2 x JBL 2450H (500Hz-20kHz) and 2 x QSC amps. For this I got excellent feedback on diyaudio: How best setup multiway PA system. But I'm struggling when it comes to the best active crossover config. First I wanted to do it all analog. I tried an old Ashley crossover but that had too much noise. I could get a BSS FDS-360 which was top-notch quarter century ago. I preferred analog because it's just plug and play and I'm not a fan of multiple A/D, D/A, A/D conversions. Then got a DBX Driverack PA2 and was impressed by its ease-of-use and audible improvements (compared to the old Ashley). But then it's only half-way digital compared to the t.racks FIR DSP 408 at almost same price. But that thing doesn't have Mac software so that led me down the Mac-as-DSP path. Here I got excellent feedback re What else than an Apple Mac Pro M3 do I need to replace DBX Driverack PA2? But I'm not sure if the suggestions (e.g. dac8 PRO, CamillaDSP) are targeted for home cinema/hifi or demanding studio, live and PA setups, which must be sturdy, reliable, idiot-proof. There is excellent info on CamillaDSP - Cross-platform IIR and FIR engine for crossovers, room correction etc. I will definitely try this out!
Background: We needed a sound system for festivals (100+ people) and I found very cheap 2 x JBL ASB6125 (32Hz-1kHz) and 2 x JBL 2450H (500Hz-20kHz) and 2 x QSC amps. For this I got excellent feedback on diyaudio: How best setup multiway PA system. But I'm struggling when it comes to the best active crossover config. First I wanted to do it all analog. I tried an old Ashley crossover but that had too much noise. I could get a BSS FDS-360 which was top-notch quarter century ago. I preferred analog because it's just plug and play and I'm not a fan of multiple A/D, D/A, A/D conversions. Then got a DBX Driverack PA2 and was impressed by its ease-of-use and audible improvements (compared to the old Ashley). But then it's only half-way digital compared to the t.racks FIR DSP 408 at almost same price. But that thing doesn't have Mac software so that led me down the Mac-as-DSP path. Here I got excellent feedback re What else than an Apple Mac Pro M3 do I need to replace DBX Driverack PA2? But I'm not sure if the suggestions (e.g. dac8 PRO, CamillaDSP) are targeted for home cinema/hifi or demanding studio, live and PA setups, which must be sturdy, reliable, idiot-proof. There is excellent info on CamillaDSP - Cross-platform IIR and FIR engine for crossovers, room correction etc. I will definitely try this out!
A computer dsp solution will never be as idiot-proof as a dedicated single-purpose crossover unit. Who will be operating the system? You? Or someone who was given a quick intro by someone who was given a quick intro?
Hey, i'm using the UltraLite with my PA setup but i'm using a PC that is build into the rack. That said, it's just an i3 4 Core and it's working without issues. The latency of the interface is not going to be an issue, it will be possible to run at ~5ms, but what you are going to have to look out for is plugin latency. Pro-Q is fine as long as you use minumum phase mode. Ozone on the other side might be an issue. If you want to use e.g. L-2 as limiter or C-2 you have to keep a close look at the settings you use. It is possible to run under certain circumstances. Use a high sample rate, as plugin latency is usually fixed to a sample size. In L-2 disabling true peak limiting will greatly reduce latency. The daw you are using should not make a difference at all to that.
Compatibillity is going to be your best friend for this so i would stay with brands that are known for good driver support like motu or rme.
Compatibillity is going to be your best friend for this so i would stay with brands that are known for good driver support like motu or rme.
Festivals... is it a PA rig for instruments/song or just music playback. If music playback, latency is of no importance.... people can wait 40ms to get the dance starting ;-)
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I can set it up and turn it on but during an Ableton live performance I do not want to "operate" anything else than my live session. And let's say a band is playing I don't want to "operate" anything either. Basically after it's been set up properly, I just want to turn it on and leave while it's doing its job.
Okay now I'm wondering what factors create latency issues. Let's say I have a Powerbook M4 (50% more than M2) and the Motu mk5, should I still worry about latency? Let's say we do a Ableton live session with a 5-head acoustic/singer band using 10 tracks and I will be using 5 tracks for MIDI and audio. All tracks have a few effects, then compression and so on, then out to CamillaDSP or similar, will latency be an issue with an M4 and Motu mk5?
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With CamillaDSP, the main factors impacting latency are chunk size, target level and resampling. It has nothing to do with the processing power of the computer. Latency will be largely the same for all interfaces given the same settings, although some interfaces can tolerate lower chunk sizes and some manage buffer levels differently. The Okto for example will reduce buffer level after a single pause / restart cycle which gives it lower latency than the MOTUs.
I have some discussion on latency in my CamillaDSP tutorial -> RPi-CamillaDSP.
Michael
I have some discussion on latency in my CamillaDSP tutorial -> RPi-CamillaDSP.
Michael
Crossover works at 0.3% DSP load on a Powerbook M1! There is a good documentation on the CamillaDSP thread. Then found this step-by-step on Henriks Github for a basic crossover which got me started.
But was PITA to set up. Main issues with virtual Python environment, starting it as I had no config.yml, then found the step-by-step but then getting the formats right for capture and output devices, e.g. only FLOAT32LE seemed to work with "BlackHole 2ch" capture device and S24LE for "UMC404HD 192k" output device. But works flawlessly with Ableton now. Would have been impossible for me without feeding the dozens of error messages to ChatGPT and working through each issue. But hey, it works!
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Latency is only dependent on 2 factors:
1. buffer size used for the interface -> 1 / samplerate * buffer in samples eg. 1 / 96000 * 64 = 3,33ms
2. plugin latency, differs for every plugin, can be anything from zero to 4 seconds
crossover should be no issue at all, that would work on a 20 year old pc as well. as you work on a mac i would suggest using logic.
edit: this will work no issue but why don't you just do everything in live? you don't need to run a seperate program for this - to crossover in e.g. Pro-Q 3 just do 2x 12dB HP and 2x 12dB LP (2x 12dB BW = 1x 24dB LR)
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Seems CamillaDSP is most advanced in this and can do IIR and FIR, else I completely agree
I've looked at different solutions for the lowest latency on Mac :
the only trouble with this system is making the config file with the filters. In a PA situation, I would never use Camillia DSP or HLC. You have to use a proper PA crossover and there is some with a Mac interface.
In the studio, I still use some FDS 360 for a 4 way active system to reduce latency. I 've been looking for another solution but finding a good analogue XO today is complicated. I'm still using a very good Swiss DA and if I find someone to upgrade the electronics inside the FDS 360 ( working since 1997), I'm keeping this solution.
PM me if you want to talk about it on WhatsApp.
I've used this to actify some ATC 100 (passif) and it's amazing. The latency is very low if you stick to simple crossovers without going crazy about correction with FIR. Remember to look for low latency DAs ! the dac8 PRO was out of my budget because I wanted really good amps so I went for the the cheap Topping DM7 which is also balanced, same DA but I think the electronics in the Dac8 pro is much better and not just a usb input ...
the only trouble with this system is making the config file with the filters. In a PA situation, I would never use Camillia DSP or HLC. You have to use a proper PA crossover and there is some with a Mac interface.
In the studio, I still use some FDS 360 for a 4 way active system to reduce latency. I 've been looking for another solution but finding a good analogue XO today is complicated. I'm still using a very good Swiss DA and if I find someone to upgrade the electronics inside the FDS 360 ( working since 1997), I'm keeping this solution.
PM me if you want to talk about it on WhatsApp.
For live purpose: why not use a DAW like Reaper?
Reaper
You can use it like a normal mixing desk.
Or Gigperformer… here you can build your own rack, depending on your needs
Gigperformer
Reaper
You can use it like a normal mixing desk.
Or Gigperformer… here you can build your own rack, depending on your needs
Gigperformer