This project has taken a different turn with an impulse purchase ZR12.4D driver not doing too well in sims for sheer output. Now the floor is open for a replacement choice, and in the meantime I need to get at least one cab up and running by August. I have been sitting on a 10" driver for a couple of years as stocks of those ran out, and I couldn't get three more. It's never returned to stock since. I'll use it now to get one working cab and then source 4 drivers that can do this role
The job is spending most of the time as HT and music on an open boat deck 3x6m and part-time as practice PA for some aspiring young students to plug their school instruments including electric bass/double bass and the acoustic instruments wearing synth pickups to mess with school material in form of the systems regular use music with a couple of examples given below. They will be plugging into my Roland Pro gear including digital mixers and synths from the Aira range as well as Akai pro gear
Normal use will be tube for the tops and tube flavoured class d for the dubwoofers and all tube flavoured class d for the girls pro use
The urgentish need is to have something three of the girls can plug in for lil demo in August of what they're doing, but the school PA has no low bass
So space is dire short, transport difficult and sizes must be kept as small as possible but the output needs to be clean and solid. Pls see the two examples of the usual listening material
Let's see if the Bagheera Sound System can ever be born (name is a pun on the boat, which is a cat, amongst other great cat fetishes)
Driver chosen for the point source efficient tops are the PRO-ZT69. The system will be a speaker in each corner with a phantom centre
This is the unobtanium 10" in 20L and Fb 43Hz against my recently compiled virtual references for subs out of small boxes in WinISD and the top, with all at full power. There is over-comprehensive DSP tuning available in the Roland MX-1 digital mixer which will be the brains of the system as well as a DJ-202 for one of the girls to learn to perform on. Not the MX-1 though. I was lucky to score the last new one in Au and no one is touching this most unusual kind of device packing King Tubby into 18in/18out digital channels 😀
The master active speaker will also hold a DSP board featuring HT in the form of AC3 and DTS with full i/O
The blue traces are the 10" and the PRO-ZT69 both at full power. This is what I have to work with for the moment and to pick 4 new drivers for the sub array for the system
The job is spending most of the time as HT and music on an open boat deck 3x6m and part-time as practice PA for some aspiring young students to plug their school instruments including electric bass/double bass and the acoustic instruments wearing synth pickups to mess with school material in form of the systems regular use music with a couple of examples given below. They will be plugging into my Roland Pro gear including digital mixers and synths from the Aira range as well as Akai pro gear
Normal use will be tube for the tops and tube flavoured class d for the dubwoofers and all tube flavoured class d for the girls pro use
The urgentish need is to have something three of the girls can plug in for lil demo in August of what they're doing, but the school PA has no low bass
So space is dire short, transport difficult and sizes must be kept as small as possible but the output needs to be clean and solid. Pls see the two examples of the usual listening material
Let's see if the Bagheera Sound System can ever be born (name is a pun on the boat, which is a cat, amongst other great cat fetishes)
Driver chosen for the point source efficient tops are the PRO-ZT69. The system will be a speaker in each corner with a phantom centre
This is the unobtanium 10" in 20L and Fb 43Hz against my recently compiled virtual references for subs out of small boxes in WinISD and the top, with all at full power. There is over-comprehensive DSP tuning available in the Roland MX-1 digital mixer which will be the brains of the system as well as a DJ-202 for one of the girls to learn to perform on. Not the MX-1 though. I was lucky to score the last new one in Au and no one is touching this most unusual kind of device packing King Tubby into 18in/18out digital channels 😀
The master active speaker will also hold a DSP board featuring HT in the form of AC3 and DTS with full i/O
The blue traces are the 10" and the PRO-ZT69 both at full power. This is what I have to work with for the moment and to pick 4 new drivers for the sub array for the system
The previous post's blue is the unobtanium 10" again, and the inactive blue is the PRO-ZT69 for the tops. Red traces are the two Virtual references. The top red trace output is on par with loud tops, but that would mean 8x drivers with dual driver 60L boxes. Cant do, too much to transport and store. That 60L will need more volume added for port, wall thickness, electronics bay and a further 8L for the coax compartment, so the actual cabs will be closer to 80L, I need to chop this almost in half without giving up too much in sheer output
Which means I need driver options for this music and HT 4 channel setup and max 4 sub drivers
In the meantime, I can use the single cab with the unobtanium immediately. All parts to make something out of the driver are on hand, including building materials and finishing. Just need a valid design for it. I am thinking the 20L in the sims plus the 43Hz port and the 8L for the PRO-ZT can all be fit into a cab about the size of a smallish 12" + horn type PA speaker or around under 40L. This will keep the girls pro use practice and demo
But I also really need to figure out which 4 drivers to use for the actual sound system. How does the green trace look as a De Fine Dubwoofer contender?
I will also need to figure out how to best array the drivers in the system. Boat deck install will be 4 channel HT so a pair at each narrow end of the deck. They will have weatherproof covers for when not in use and the boat is trailered
A weatherproof portable sound desk that can be taken from home to boat or live use will be part of this build. Otherwise, the system will run on the boat without the pro gear and just on the HT module inside the master speaker and run from a laptop HDMI to that boards I/O
That's a single x12 driver with 30L and 43Hz tuning and 2kw against the red traces of the Virtual References running same and double power/cab size. Let's list the desired driver hardware to give some perspective to a suitable array for both the normal use on the boat and pro use at school
Tops
4x PRO-ZT69 coaxials with 300W each for pro and bypassing the class ds for EL34 amps for normal use
Dubwoofers
4x drivers no larger than 12" to keep overall sizes in hand
The potential to keep them as separate tops and bass bins is there if arraying the subs together will help in the school hall
Anyway, here in green trace is one 12" driver that I can buy for a good price. My location precludes much of the usual driver brands due to large shipping rates and many purchases getting a cancelled notification due to the sellers claiming no stock just to avoid honouring the shipping agreements. How does she look with 30L behind it and 43Hz tune? There would be a total of 4 of these, and how would I calculate combined output? +18dB? Not too sure about this
@weltersys
Art, I have a serious query regarding the ZXI15.4D driver. I am pondering donating one sub to the school for the very wet days here in Qld. Part of my program to support this lil school who are really into music. I have already donated a full bands worth of instruments when I upgraded my studio. The school also has the Yamaha MG12XU which is also the same as the analog mixer in my setup providing preamps for the MX-1. Our school hall is a touch smaller than the one in the vid with the z623. I also support their STEM programs. Anyway, that's the background. The query for you is regarding how would the ZXI15.4D suit the Keystone 15 cab as general purpose sub for school disco and very wet days when transport for my sound system would be difficult? Could this be something I could give them? Or should I look at a different type of box for this driver for this purpose. I can also buy from SBA drivers and whatever pro drivers are available locally from folks who would actually send one up here without asking large shipping
Which means I need driver options for this music and HT 4 channel setup and max 4 sub drivers
In the meantime, I can use the single cab with the unobtanium immediately. All parts to make something out of the driver are on hand, including building materials and finishing. Just need a valid design for it. I am thinking the 20L in the sims plus the 43Hz port and the 8L for the PRO-ZT can all be fit into a cab about the size of a smallish 12" + horn type PA speaker or around under 40L. This will keep the girls pro use practice and demo
But I also really need to figure out which 4 drivers to use for the actual sound system. How does the green trace look as a De Fine Dubwoofer contender?
I will also need to figure out how to best array the drivers in the system. Boat deck install will be 4 channel HT so a pair at each narrow end of the deck. They will have weatherproof covers for when not in use and the boat is trailered
A weatherproof portable sound desk that can be taken from home to boat or live use will be part of this build. Otherwise, the system will run on the boat without the pro gear and just on the HT module inside the master speaker and run from a laptop HDMI to that boards I/O
That's a single x12 driver with 30L and 43Hz tuning and 2kw against the red traces of the Virtual References running same and double power/cab size. Let's list the desired driver hardware to give some perspective to a suitable array for both the normal use on the boat and pro use at school
Tops
4x PRO-ZT69 coaxials with 300W each for pro and bypassing the class ds for EL34 amps for normal use
Dubwoofers
4x drivers no larger than 12" to keep overall sizes in hand
The potential to keep them as separate tops and bass bins is there if arraying the subs together will help in the school hall
Anyway, here in green trace is one 12" driver that I can buy for a good price. My location precludes much of the usual driver brands due to large shipping rates and many purchases getting a cancelled notification due to the sellers claiming no stock just to avoid honouring the shipping agreements. How does she look with 30L behind it and 43Hz tune? There would be a total of 4 of these, and how would I calculate combined output? +18dB? Not too sure about this
@weltersys
Art, I have a serious query regarding the ZXI15.4D driver. I am pondering donating one sub to the school for the very wet days here in Qld. Part of my program to support this lil school who are really into music. I have already donated a full bands worth of instruments when I upgraded my studio. The school also has the Yamaha MG12XU which is also the same as the analog mixer in my setup providing preamps for the MX-1. Our school hall is a touch smaller than the one in the vid with the z623. I also support their STEM programs. Anyway, that's the background. The query for you is regarding how would the ZXI15.4D suit the Keystone 15 cab as general purpose sub for school disco and very wet days when transport for my sound system would be difficult? Could this be something I could give them? Or should I look at a different type of box for this driver for this purpose. I can also buy from SBA drivers and whatever pro drivers are available locally from folks who would actually send one up here without asking large shipping
I have not looked at the ZXI15.4D TS parameters.
If you want to get a rough idea of how it would work, plug the TS parameters into the Hornresp model.
If you are feeling generous, don't see why not.
Cool. This is for another day though
Art, how would 4x actives, each being the green trace, sum best on the lil stage? Let's say a plain BR as in the sims. Maybe with the folded twin flare or scoop ports?
Another thing, the PRO-ZT sims quite strong in the upper bass. Does this sum with the upper bass from the sub if there is any overlap before the xo?
At the moment it's looking like the system will be made of green+pink x4 and a blue+pink breakaway using the unobtanium
Man I dont want to start drawing out yet another cab without having that valid sound model but I'll take a chance with that breakaway cab. The blue+pink looks very mismatched but maybe Eq and level?
Still pondering on how to configure that single smaller cab. What if I did it as a common cab 2.1 using a pair of the tops? Some drawings might be in order to see visual impact and space use
Yeah, without a sketch no idea what you are asking about "on the lil stage".
This is what the 10" unobtanium would look like with 20L for the driver + port.
What I meant was if 4x cabs would be better lined in a horizontal array or a stack looking like 4x10 type
What I meant was if 4x cabs would be better lined in a horizontal array or a stack looking like 4x10 type
Horizontal array port to floor would start to narrow horizontal dispersion above ~70 Hz, and would allow the widest vertical dispersion.
A vertical stack would have the most narrow vertical pattern and widest horizontal coverage.
The four speakers as in the usual musical instrument 4x box like: (88), ports to the outside would be in between for coverage.
The arrangement of the top co-ax drivers (s) would follow the same generalities, but comb filtering will be more apparent.
A vertical stack would have the most narrow vertical pattern and widest horizontal coverage.
The four speakers as in the usual musical instrument 4x box like: (88), ports to the outside would be in between for coverage.
The arrangement of the top co-ax drivers (s) would follow the same generalities, but comb filtering will be more apparent.
The BR cab looks workable for the smaller single breakaway cab. I'll spend a day in HR with this one to see if I can sim a BLH and how much larger would that end up. With the BR models, the port is almost half again the driver volume. I can afford to give it a bit more than that if I can get a solid gain in port output
My constraints are mostly footprint based, but height is fairly flexible if the subs can eliminate the need for carrying stands for the tops. Maybe a two sub array with back to back tops perched on top per side. That opens up about 1.2m height for the dubwoofers, but the boxes would have to be very narrow
Now to figure out how to enter that Cms in HR
My constraints are mostly footprint based, but height is fairly flexible if the subs can eliminate the need for carrying stands for the tops. Maybe a two sub array with back to back tops perched on top per side. That opens up about 1.2m height for the dubwoofers, but the boxes would have to be very narrow
Now to figure out how to enter that Cms in HR
Decided on project woofers. One pair of these to start with. Two cabinet 3-way stack with the coaxial and two such stacks. Will add a pair of tops for HR rear channel and another pair of subs as funds permit. Cant go too far wrong with drivers that at least physically are built to offer this much controlled power
https://ds18.com/cdn/shop/files/ZXI12.4D_MANUAL_WEB.pdf?v=16680917641704439979
So the aim is a clean pair of musical subs pushing solid output in very compact sizes. The visual ambience of scoops is welcome, even if it means scoopish looking BR ports around 33Hz tuning. It does feel better moving forward with the project. I'll stick to the values by WinISD and HR
Let's see how first the 10" single break away and then the 12" stereo pair model in HR
https://ds18.com/cdn/shop/files/ZXI12.4D_MANUAL_WEB.pdf?v=16680917641704439979
So the aim is a clean pair of musical subs pushing solid output in very compact sizes. The visual ambience of scoops is welcome, even if it means scoopish looking BR ports around 33Hz tuning. It does feel better moving forward with the project. I'll stick to the values by WinISD and HR
Let's see how first the 10" single break away and then the 12" stereo pair model in HR
I wouldn't over-rely on sims. In the early 2000s I bought a Jaycar sub based on their published specs, but when I had a closer look, the spider suspension was much stiffer going 'in' than 'out', and I realised that that model was targeting just SPL, not sound quality. Something a simulation would never take into account. So I went back and exchanged it for a different driver, where the surround was more 'frankfurter' and less brawn. Very good decision for my needs. Similarly, I noted that the jumbo rubber surround was going to sound dull no matter what, with its high loss elastic texture producing a lot of distortion.
If size is a big deal, perhaps consider something like bass bins, where the outer horn segments can be unbolted and stacked like deck chairs for storage?
If size is a big deal, perhaps consider something like bass bins, where the outer horn segments can be unbolted and stacked like deck chairs for storage?
Don't know about this one. Storage is going to be mounted to walls for home/deck HT use
The ZXI12.4D is proving to be a bit too expansive to order in a pair. I will have to get them one at a time. First one is ordered. I can start on these as a 2.1 config and then expand to the rear channels + 3 more subs
Time to sort out DSP for system xovers and filters The HT DSP board will only be used to bring in FR and FL channels to an Input on the MX-1 digital mixer. This stereo channel will contain LFE as well as phantom centre. The RR and RL channels will go directly to the coax rear satellites when stored and used at home/deck
I am leaning towards this unit from car audio as a solid, bulletproof system DSP that will give me control over 6 discrete outputs. One pair for the mains, stereo subs and one pair left over as monitor/aux out. The MX-1 lacks monitor/mains type routing, and this DSP unit will allow me to implement that last pair of outs as desk monitors and such upon need. This one can be built into the master subwoofer cab plus internal converters to send balanced outs for mains, second sub channel and monitor/aux outs
https://ds18.com/collections/car-audio-processors?sort=price-ascending
So starting life as a 2.1 channel system and evolving to 4.2 with dual subs on each of the stereo subwoofer channels
Based around the above DSP as the main system processor, a single ZXI12.4D sub and one pair of PRO-ZT69 as mains. EL34 10w+10w for the mains when at home otherwise 300w+300w class D for the mains. Subs will each get 2kw class d
I think the 8 out version of the DSP would be better as I can have routing for any floorplay monitors such as mu Cub Sandwich project and or the 10” based single cab also part of this system
Got a better name for the sound system too. How does “Volcano Sound System” sound? Done in red and black
Got a better name for the sound system too. How does “Volcano Sound System” sound? Done in red and black
https://ds18.com/products/ds18-dsp2...ith-bluetooth-and-lcd-screen?view=sl-76453B29
I ended up going for this 2 in/8 out DSP. Time to now see how a scoop goes in HR for the 10" single cab
I ended up going for this 2 in/8 out DSP. Time to now see how a scoop goes in HR for the 10" single cab
I think I got a bit muddled up. This loudspeaker is best kept small so it will be a bass reflex in a three-way or woofer assisted coaxial
Needs to run a 30Hz low cut on the sub crossing to coaxial around 150Hz, a 50hz low cut on the coaxial and the built-in xover to the tweeter. Here I have the option to remove the stock xo and run the loudspeaker as an active 3-way if it would make for a better system
Having this in stereo would be brilliant, but I only have one 10" driver and no stocks for a couple of years now, so will need a pair of alternatives. I have been wondering about 10" SBA drivers since I can get them locally. Are these any good?
Hey man. The coaxial is way more efficient and much louder, There is a step in the response but I am hoping that maybe they will combine and flatten out the overlap a bit and a lil bit of maybe Eq
Unobtanium Vb 20L, Fb 43Hz, 800w
SLC10S Vb 20L, Fb 43Hz, 440w
PRO-ZT69 Vb 8L, Fb 75Hz, 300w
Looks like I still can't read the graphs all that well, too. In the SPL graph, the SLC10S looks like it's louder with half the power and sort of matches up with the coaxial but shows a huge hump in transfer function magnitude.. I need to understand what's happening here a bit better before I can rely on my judgement. The poor unobtanium is the DVC version of the SLC10s and rated a twice the power but is so much quieter on the SPL graph but so much smoother in the transfer function magnitude graph
I meant subwoofers. To replace the unobtanium. SBA ones actually seem rather puny for the cheaper ones, or too expensive. The SLC10S maybe? The price and performance winner here is the AUD $160 Logitech in disguise, and I can put two of those ina box for similar money as the cheapest SBA 10". Trying to replace "lil Terror" with a floor pair based around a 10" + coax running off the extra DSP channels or even better a custom electronic patch reflecting the mixer and DSP settings. There is a cheap one Ali that I might be able to use as the brains for this loudspeaker to turn it into a second independent system for just the smaller use
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005880012900.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.65133f5aokylGC&algo_pvid=8de09185-d78b-43b4-bba5-29b2a4ce4c7e&algo_exp_id=8de09185-d78b-43b4-bba5-29b2a4ce4c7e-0&pdp_npi=4@dis!AUD!59.37!54.62!!!38.89!35.78!@2101e63417199661558247492e882a!12000034681998126!sea!AU!3392394610!&curPageLogUid=bjOpD8ML6jLc&utparam-url=scene:search|query_from:
The response in the SPL graph is the same, it uses 2dB per line (56dB total range), the transfer function magnitude just .5dB per line (19dB total range), so the hump (it's transfer function relative to nominal sensitivity at the "0" dB line) looks bigger.
If you are using only a single coil of a double voice coil, it's sensitivity will drop ~4dB and power handling will drop by 3dB. You may be doing something like that in your sim due to its ambiguous TS parameters.
Art, that's not true. The SLC10S is an SVC version of the GEN-X10.4D (unobtanium). Not using only one coil from DVC, but rather an SVC with a coil rated pretty much the same as only one of the coils from the DVC. I find it unusual that it's louder than the DVC version
That humpy response is the best that I can get out of 20L and 43Hz tuning for under $200. I have no idea how that would sound and would be a gamble
Also appears that DS18 target flatter and lower responses and sacrifice sheer output with increasing driver price range and keep the competition style SPL drivers separate in the EXL stream