@IamJF -- ok, the PHL frames for commercial manufacturing. Not great for DIYers. Will see what happens with my18S 12"s. If they work well, perhaps there's a 10" pro driver somewhere that can fit the bill.
That's the ideal -- a smaller woofer that can do what the Neumann & Genelec studio monitors do. They are amazingly small for their bass & output capability!
That's the ideal -- a smaller woofer that can do what the Neumann & Genelec studio monitors do. They are amazingly small for their bass & output capability!
@mikessi
I cant find a good (low Mms/high Bl/fabric surround) 10 inch Pro driver in the Beyma range that will hit your SPL's,
But if you can squeeze in a 312 mm chassis the Beyma 12 LX60 V2 https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fich...ers-data-sheet-low-mid-frequency-12LX60V2.pdf holds 106 dB at 40Hz so pair hold 112 dB (based on Arts pro experience!) before corner/wall reinforcement which could add another 3dB or 4 dB.
At a more realistic 175 watts (under 20% of AES rated power) and just 50% of Xmax a single holds 102dB so a pair in room around 108dB to 112dB with some boundary gain
I cant find a good (low Mms/high Bl/fabric surround) 10 inch Pro driver in the Beyma range that will hit your SPL's,
But if you can squeeze in a 312 mm chassis the Beyma 12 LX60 V2 https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fich...ers-data-sheet-low-mid-frequency-12LX60V2.pdf holds 106 dB at 40Hz so pair hold 112 dB (based on Arts pro experience!) before corner/wall reinforcement which could add another 3dB or 4 dB.
At a more realistic 175 watts (under 20% of AES rated power) and just 50% of Xmax a single holds 102dB so a pair in room around 108dB to 112dB with some boundary gain
@Hydrogen Alex --
Your research is appreciated but that driver will be $1000/pr for me, and its advantages on paper just don't look significant enough, especially because it's the same size as the eighteensound 12" I already have. As well as being 10 kg vs 4.
I did find a 10" Eminence that could kind of work. 10.25" diameter! Is it robust enough for such bass EQ boost? https://qcomponents.ca/collections/...2510-8-ohm-10-250w-neodymium-pro-audio-woofer
WinISD tells me in a 34 liter sealed box, Q=0.6, rolloff begins >200Hz, and is -14.5 dB at 40Hz. Rated for 250W, 97 dB/W. Assuming perfect power linearity, 200W could drive it to ~118 dB with 15 dB boost at 40 Hz.
Sounds too good to be true!
Of course, it is: Xmax is just 4.2mm
Your research is appreciated but that driver will be $1000/pr for me, and its advantages on paper just don't look significant enough, especially because it's the same size as the eighteensound 12" I already have. As well as being 10 kg vs 4.
I did find a 10" Eminence that could kind of work. 10.25" diameter! Is it robust enough for such bass EQ boost? https://qcomponents.ca/collections/...2510-8-ohm-10-250w-neodymium-pro-audio-woofer
WinISD tells me in a 34 liter sealed box, Q=0.6, rolloff begins >200Hz, and is -14.5 dB at 40Hz. Rated for 250W, 97 dB/W. Assuming perfect power linearity, 200W could drive it to ~118 dB with 15 dB boost at 40 Hz.
Sounds too good to be true!
Of course, it is: Xmax is just 4.2mm
Maybe just read the data sheets of the Eminence. They have all kinds of examples how to use it and what limitations there are.
If you don't like to read that much: This driver is not suited for your whishes, sorry.
In general neodym drivers are not that good in dissipating heat. For stationary use I would prefer a ceramic magnet driver in any case. Less cost, better cooling, more stable due to higher weight.
If you don't like to read that much: This driver is not suited for your whishes, sorry.
In general neodym drivers are not that good in dissipating heat. For stationary use I would prefer a ceramic magnet driver in any case. Less cost, better cooling, more stable due to higher weight.
Everything 10" or bigger is PHL! 🤓
Looked after ScanSpeaks? This one looks good, but these are expensive:
https://www.scan-speak.dk/product/28w-4878t01/
I use the 20cm version of this driver - the best 8" I know. But they need some volume: https://www.scan-speak.dk/product/26w-8867t00/
Relatively leight membrane, lot's of Xmax which they are able to reach with low THD, more sturdy as the 50mm coil looks.
You could probably also fit a 32W in your cab? But the 28W should be perfect!
The new Beyma is exactly built for your purpose btw ... but also pretty expensive as far as I know: https://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/low-mid-frequency/210NMFS8/altavoz-10nmfs-8-oh/
I just can not get that driver to work in a sealed box... When I run a 0.6 Q I get a disaster... Ie it is massively limited by its low Xmax ie 97dB whilst thermally (power handling) it could hold 106dB... Also I get a Vb of 50 litres (using Arts reduced driver diameter figure).
A pair would hold 103 dB at 4.5mm Xmax at 40 Hz but that is on the limit... I would avoid this if possible.
Yeah, for sure, the 10" Delta Lite is definitely out. 4.5mm Xmax!
For fun & laughs, here's some of the worst routering I've ever done. Working outside in near freezing temp... Whatever. I mounted the waveguide on a "nuded" JA0801 and tried it out. I can say it immediately sounds smoother than in stock form. The rest is just some really rough manual tuning by ear & REW. It's not bad. Sometimes I just need to remind myself that there's a pot of gold somewhere out there that I'm chasing by listening to something.
For fun & laughs, here's some of the worst routering I've ever done. Working outside in near freezing temp... Whatever. I mounted the waveguide on a "nuded" JA0801 and tried it out. I can say it immediately sounds smoother than in stock form. The rest is just some really rough manual tuning by ear & REW. It's not bad. Sometimes I just need to remind myself that there's a pot of gold somewhere out there that I'm chasing by listening to something.
Is this just a 10mm radius? These midrange "waveguides" are often pretty simple. Straight 45° or simple radius are sometimes working good up to a few kHz.
I would try to start closer to the dome and keep 1-2mm distance to the surround, should be enough.
That's what I did at my last project to reduce the influence of the mid dome to the tweeter. Looks strange but works.
It's a 1" radius quarter-round bit applied at 3/4" height to an 80mm hole I cut in the center.
I forgot that the BB I used is a 18~19mm piece that came from cutting a woofer hole. Tried to round off the outside with the bit at full depth. The BB board was raised up off the working surface with a 1/2" board -- which meant the bearing guide wasn't guiding anything. Hence freehand, more or less.
It has an organic look. 🤣
Brandon (@augerpro) suggested to me that the surround is best left clear of the waveguide, which is why I used an 80mm hole. (Besides my next size down is 70mm, which is too close for comfort. Maybe 75mm would work OK.
I forgot that the BB I used is a 18~19mm piece that came from cutting a woofer hole. Tried to round off the outside with the bit at full depth. The BB board was raised up off the working surface with a 1/2" board -- which meant the bearing guide wasn't guiding anything. Hence freehand, more or less.
It has an organic look. 🤣
Brandon (@augerpro) suggested to me that the surround is best left clear of the waveguide, which is why I used an 80mm hole. (Besides my next size down is 70mm, which is too close for comfort. Maybe 75mm would work OK.
With a flat/inward surround you can go close to the membrane and that's at least in theory the best way to couple a horn/waveguide. You trap some volume and this can have side effects but when the volume is small enough it's (far) out of the range.
Back to the woofers. Yesterday, I made a new baffle for the Eighteen Sound 12" woofer. This baffle isn't quite as heavy as the one for the Dayton 10" sub, but it's decently rigid.
As expected, with 43~45 liters sealed volume, the 18S pro woofer starts rolling off at around 100Hz. Don't have the Fb in hand; suffice it to say it's quite high. A 12 dB Q=1.0 peak boost at 35 Hz brought F3 to ~38 Hz. And increasing gain to >100 dB @1m showed the driver can handle the boost to that level without obvious signs of overload.
Obviously, it's way too early to determine whether it sounds good or measures well.
I had Qobuz streaming through it while I worked on other things in the workshop. This is with a quick & dirty setup of driver levels, basic PEQ, and LR4 crossovers at 600 & 5000 Hz. I can only say it sounded decent on some tracks, terrible in a few. Source material was random so, impossible to draw any real conclusions. It's just a start.
PS -- Have to acclimatize to mono again in development mode.
As expected, with 43~45 liters sealed volume, the 18S pro woofer starts rolling off at around 100Hz. Don't have the Fb in hand; suffice it to say it's quite high. A 12 dB Q=1.0 peak boost at 35 Hz brought F3 to ~38 Hz. And increasing gain to >100 dB @1m showed the driver can handle the boost to that level without obvious signs of overload.
Obviously, it's way too early to determine whether it sounds good or measures well.
I had Qobuz streaming through it while I worked on other things in the workshop. This is with a quick & dirty setup of driver levels, basic PEQ, and LR4 crossovers at 600 & 5000 Hz. I can only say it sounded decent on some tracks, terrible in a few. Source material was random so, impossible to draw any real conclusions. It's just a start.
PS -- Have to acclimatize to mono again in development mode.
Is F3 at 38Hz good enough? I aim for flat down to about 25Hz at listening position (depending on the lowest chancellation frequency) and try not to exceed 10dB boost. You can lower higher frequencies instead of boosting low ones (cause that's what actually happens with more strength/leighter membrane).
The level you get at frequency Y is just membrane surface * Xmax. EQing has nothing to do with that.
The level you get at frequency Y is just membrane surface * Xmax. EQing has nothing to do with that.
Perhaps more user-friendly in English...
Pascal
Pascal
Thank you for that, @PVRX This project was on hold for a while; too busy with others. The Faital 10RS430 does indeed seem like a nice driver. But the enclosure you tested it in is considerably bigger than I'm targeting. But will have to study all of this & more soon.
’Studio’ monitors is really a vague term for those of us that work with them for a living.
First there’s mixing, analytic monitors……nearfield, best to be small….you NEED the drivers to sun and the phase overlap to be as complete as possible. Without it, you’ll find it extremely difficult to make critical decisions…..particularly with mic’s sources, applying compression and EQ.
Playback monitors…..for when the players need to hear themselves in the control room……or when you’re checking for depth and Spacial effect…..or playback for approval from the client. Mid Field….large is ‘ok’ but with todays driver tech and DSP, no longer necessary or relevant. …..loud and large are no longer synonyms. I would NEVER consider such a system for critical mixing.
Mastering monitors……this is highly dependent on the environment so controlling reflections within the constraints of the physical……act accordingly. These are ALL about timbre and tone……..there‘s no option for individual channel considerations now. Imaging is critical. I’ve found that line sources work extremely well here……things like WMTMW and the like.
So 10” and 12” woofers for a monitor…….be sure your application works with such large drivers….and don’t make the mistake where one size fits all………it won’t.
First there’s mixing, analytic monitors……nearfield, best to be small….you NEED the drivers to sun and the phase overlap to be as complete as possible. Without it, you’ll find it extremely difficult to make critical decisions…..particularly with mic’s sources, applying compression and EQ.
Playback monitors…..for when the players need to hear themselves in the control room……or when you’re checking for depth and Spacial effect…..or playback for approval from the client. Mid Field….large is ‘ok’ but with todays driver tech and DSP, no longer necessary or relevant. …..loud and large are no longer synonyms. I would NEVER consider such a system for critical mixing.
Mastering monitors……this is highly dependent on the environment so controlling reflections within the constraints of the physical……act accordingly. These are ALL about timbre and tone……..there‘s no option for individual channel considerations now. Imaging is critical. I’ve found that line sources work extremely well here……things like WMTMW and the like.
So 10” and 12” woofers for a monitor…….be sure your application works with such large drivers….and don’t make the mistake where one size fits all………it won’t.
Mayhem13, I found that very interesting. Do you have examples of the speakers used? I’m mostly curious, I want to know where my music comes from. Thanks.
The world famous Troels has this one. I was thinking of building these, I don’t know how they would work as monitors. I’m not sure there is much difference between monitors and hifi loudspeakers any more. Definitely mid field.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/BOOKSHELF-3WC.htm
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/BOOKSHELF-3WC.htm
To get a market overview I use driver tests in the German magazines Hobbyhifi and Klang und Ton.
Then I look for this criteria:
Price must fit the budget
Then I look for this criteria:
- stiff cone, mellow surround
- linear cone travel
- high qms preferred
Price must fit the budget
Good drivers. Reduced baffle step correction. One of his better no nonsense designs. Too little damping as so often with his designs. And I would pick a different crossover topology (tweeter section cascaded on the mid’s highpass).