Hi everyone,
Aside from the audiophile aspects, what would be the minimum and acceptable level of crosstalk for a phono stage?
I'm asking this because I made a phono stage and the crosstalk level at 1 kHz is about -60 dB. Obviously it's getting degraded moving to 20 Hz.
Any though will be appreciated.
Alan.
Aside from the audiophile aspects, what would be the minimum and acceptable level of crosstalk for a phono stage?
I'm asking this because I made a phono stage and the crosstalk level at 1 kHz is about -60 dB. Obviously it's getting degraded moving to 20 Hz.
Any though will be appreciated.
Alan.
-40dB and you are better than the cartridge - especially if not specifically setup for minimum crosstalk (only takes 1 degree of cartridge angle error for -35dB crosstalk given a theoretically perfect cartridge. Besides the human ears can't really detect better than -30dB with headphones anyway.
probably the degradation is on mid-high frequency
but if you have a mininum of test setup you can see.
with a good sound card
Exactly this, the cartridge will always be the weak link in many specifications.
Real world cartridge separation is unlikely to be much better than 30dB, probably a lot worse at 20 Hz. Down there, LPs are usually recorded in mono anyway
From my reading over the past few weeks it seems that bass of any substantial volume on a record below 120 Hz or so is very intentionally mixed down to mono as this puts the motion of the stylus side to side, a direction of motion that it has much more room to move. You can see the bass as horizontal displacement of the record groove. In my photo below each groove shows up as three lines. A pic from my $70 USB microscope.
Attachments
That brings my list of the limitations of vinyl sound reproduction upto 13 I think:
surface noise
off-centre pressings
warped discs
scratches
high distortion
media wears on repeated playing
low channel separation
tracking geometry error
lower quality towards the inside of the playing area
not child-proof
bulky media / low portability
tricky in a moving vehicle
I can now add:
no channel separation for loud deep bass
🙂
surface noise
off-centre pressings
warped discs
scratches
high distortion
media wears on repeated playing
low channel separation
tracking geometry error
lower quality towards the inside of the playing area
not child-proof
bulky media / low portability
tricky in a moving vehicle
I can now add:
no channel separation for loud deep bass
🙂
All of those points are true, no question.
So then why does my turntable completely outperform any of my digital sources in “smiles per minute?” This is the ineffable mystery for me.
So then why does my turntable completely outperform any of my digital sources in “smiles per minute?” This is the ineffable mystery for me.
I think it's because it's mechanical, i.e. as analog as we are 😀
Nothing quite like watching a record go around - look in today's new vinyl HMV shops, £26 per album, and £250 record players made of cheese to play them on.... big success! 🙂
Perhaps too much of the world is now fake and digitized, so vinyl still appeals !
Nothing quite like watching a record go around - look in today's new vinyl HMV shops, £26 per album, and £250 record players made of cheese to play them on.... big success! 🙂
Perhaps too much of the world is now fake and digitized, so vinyl still appeals !
How come it still sounds so darn good if well executed.
Comparing with cd, which suffers none of the above, lp's still can bring lots of musical enjoyment.
It is easy to build a phono pre with low crosstalk. Use the interconnect shield for real EMC shield, not for signal return.
Crosstalk of the cartridge can be minimized by correctly setting the azimuth. You need a mono disc and swap the polarity of one channel. Then adjust the azimuth for minimum signal in both channels. Alternatively, use a test disc with L ch only and R ch only tracks, and minimize the signal (crosstalk) in the other channel by adjusting the azimuth of the cartridge. Do it at 315 Hz or 400 Hz.
Crosstalk of the cartridge can be minimized by correctly setting the azimuth. You need a mono disc and swap the polarity of one channel. Then adjust the azimuth for minimum signal in both channels. Alternatively, use a test disc with L ch only and R ch only tracks, and minimize the signal (crosstalk) in the other channel by adjusting the azimuth of the cartridge. Do it at 315 Hz or 400 Hz.
Well, at least you have a CD player 😀
I rip any CD I get to computer disk, and play the tracks from a little Raspberry Pi (with the Apple A2049 DAC), but I do have 2 turntables 😆.
I think I never really bonded with CD players after I realised that any £5 DVD transport mechanism in any computer was superior for bit retrieval, and so they became a big box for a questionable DAC, which is now executed perfectly in a package smaller than an RCA plug...
But turntables, the field for endless tinkering is vast!
Of course, its a challenge, and fun - and some music I have is on vinyl only, the ritual is why people like vinyl, not necessarily the sound, but the failings are there, don't deceive yourself - surface noise and scratches are annoying but you people get a form of Stockholm syndrome and get attached to the flaws... BTW another flaw I forgot to mention, because its not necessarily just vinyl related, but may involve analog master tapes, is print-through / pre-echo - completely ruins the surprise on "Time" by Pink Floyd on my vinyl copy of DSotM.
I guess it’s like a good film photo and a good digital recording. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I have some superb classical and jazz recordings that, if you heard them, would be surprised at just how quiet they are, along with great imaging and extended frequency response. The question is, given vinyls manifest failings when up against digital recordings, how the hell does it sound so good?
Perhaps some of the flaws of vinyl might be actually beneficial. Like the fact that bass is recorded mono.
We have now two satelites + one subwoofer systems working just fine these days as accepted compromise, even for cd's.
We have now two satelites + one subwoofer systems working just fine these days as accepted compromise, even for cd's.
Probably because its signal path does not consist of gazillion of opamps (referring to a cd-player output stage ias a starter) in that case.
And if it sounds good it means that the needle and the cartridge are up to the job and performing well (you cannot hear anything that is not forwarded into tonearm wiring in the beginning).
It sounds so good because we're not sensitive to most of the quality measures used to specify audio playback. Bury the noise and distortion 60db below signal and it's mostly good. And let's be honest no one ever rolled a great spliff on the back of the digital artwork of a streaming service...