Interesting- did you try a bunch of intermediate points art? What were the cone radiators comprised of? I have additional bandwidth on the top end of my midbass horns but kept my XO relatively closer to the limits of the compression driver. I might move my 600 to 800 as a starter, I've always liked a little buffer near cutoff anyway.
Remember when I did all that complaining about my newly received td15m's that did not have the Q specs that where promised? I didn't have much grip on Q specs as I do now. I never needed to figure out BL and Dats has no issue figuring Q specs. I paid for a Qes of 0.35, was told it would be 0.35 and this is what I got.
I don't think its the end of the world but... it a factor. The baffle is very close to the same dimensions of the horns, with the horns being about a few inches wider. As I said recently, its worth experimenting again...but what I recall is that when comparing the horn vs the 15"s the Horn had a dryer presentation. When I get things back running again, and purchase AudioLenseXO I should be able to set up voicings rather quickly? I will compare them again, but I remember doing burst test at 200hz, this was upstairs in the room with wood floors, and hard walls, that has worse acoustics than my carpeted, and acoustic ceiling tiled basement, and I subjectively concluded that the 15" caused more reverb than the horn.... I also did testing of 200hz and down of the 15 vs the dual slot loaded 18's and they sound identical excluding the LF extension. The PPSl had better FR as well due to being closer to the floor.
Still, everything deserves more research, because, why not. At this point, I think the Horn has more directivity than the 15's at 200hz. Directivity is a very potent factor to clarity at the listening point.
Last edited:
@camplo
LOL
You seem to be a very challenging customer. Two "small" vendors and I got the impression that both did fool you or whatever you call it. Maybe I understand this wrong but don't be surprised when such small companies will not sell to you anything anymore. The community is small and within our digital universe things distribute very fast.
Personally, I think that TS parameters are not easy to measure precisely. Have you measured your woofers in an IEC baffle? All the woofers I bought from the same source were excellent and the parameters near the specs.
LOL
You seem to be a very challenging customer. Two "small" vendors and I got the impression that both did fool you or whatever you call it. Maybe I understand this wrong but don't be surprised when such small companies will not sell to you anything anymore. The community is small and within our digital universe things distribute very fast.
Personally, I think that TS parameters are not easy to measure precisely. Have you measured your woofers in an IEC baffle? All the woofers I bought from the same source were excellent and the parameters near the specs.
Why pretend like measuring Qes with a Dats is rocket science. Qes never changed grossly through out the measurements, but hell, I will measure them again, just for the sake of it... I will put more effort into making sure the woofer is secure... just ignore that the Frequency response reflected the measured Qes.... thats just a coincidence right>?
You would say its the customers fault? Really......
I am not at odds with Acoustic Elegance.... but, lets say you order 4 of the most expensive drivers I have to offer, and one of them shows up without a phase cone... and then I send a phase cone but its smaller then the rest... Or if I tell you that your unique resistance voice coil choice (16omh) will have no effect on resulting Q specs.... but then I get them and Q specs are dbl.... and then after very low hours one of the woofers surrounds decides to separate from the frame....
You would say this all happened because of the customer....Really
Do you think.... that I would purchase, from any of these vendors, again.... LOL
Oberton has a Driver with TD18H like specs... I can build my own horn... problem solved
So I tell you that it will only take about 2 months to manufacture your horn but it ends up being almost a year.... If I tell you ok I can do this price and shipped, and then after I take your money I come back and say, I'm going to need another 1000 dollars to ship these things.... and when you do get them there will be a butterfly patch on the face of it..
You would say its the customers fault? Really......
I am not at odds with Acoustic Elegance.... but, lets say you order 4 of the most expensive drivers I have to offer, and one of them shows up without a phase cone... and then I send a phase cone but its smaller then the rest... Or if I tell you that your unique resistance voice coil choice (16omh) will have no effect on resulting Q specs.... but then I get them and Q specs are dbl.... and then after very low hours one of the woofers surrounds decides to separate from the frame....
You would say this all happened because of the customer....Really
Do you think.... that I would purchase, from any of these vendors, again.... LOL
Oberton has a Driver with TD18H like specs... I can build my own horn... problem solved
Last edited:
Qes measured just fine on the 18h+
just make sure to thank me later. Learn from my mistakes. Measure the drivers you buy.... and when requesting a Horn to be built, be very specific about what you want. We've had this discussion before, Cutoff, means nothing, except for what a Vendor decides it means. With that being said, make sure you are educated on the concerning topics and be very specific in what you expect. When it comes to F I am still not 100% educated enough to communicate all things... The information is here in the Acoustical impedance but I am still learning to speak on the topic correctly. When I think cutoff, I expect F3. I also practically think that cutoff would be better described by the last resonant note of a horn, as in the peak before falling off, the actual tuning note... wait I know this one... The Fundamental
@docali Like myself... you are a victim blamer....but in this instance... I am innocent. 😇
Sure doesThe community is small and within our digital universe things distribute very fast.
just make sure to thank me later. Learn from my mistakes. Measure the drivers you buy.... and when requesting a Horn to be built, be very specific about what you want. We've had this discussion before, Cutoff, means nothing, except for what a Vendor decides it means. With that being said, make sure you are educated on the concerning topics and be very specific in what you expect. When it comes to F I am still not 100% educated enough to communicate all things... The information is here in the Acoustical impedance but I am still learning to speak on the topic correctly. When I think cutoff, I expect F3. I also practically think that cutoff would be better described by the last resonant note of a horn, as in the peak before falling off, the actual tuning note... wait I know this one... The Fundamental @docali Like myself... you are a victim blamer....but in this instance... I am innocent. 😇
Last edited:
I remember the complaints back in 2011, don't remember what the frequency response of the drivers was in your box.
If you ask me, it doesn't seem you can do anything audio related rather quickly
If you did not EQ the 15" box and the horn to the same frequency response (HP the 15" to the same low response) the burst test would result in more reverberation for the 15", as reverb time is longer for lower frequencies.
Though both would be approaching a Q of 1 (omnidirectional) at 200Hz, the 15" box has a larger baffle than the horn mouth, it may have a slightly higher Q.
Go ahead and measure the polar response of each if that is a concern.
Back in the "bad old days" of two-way systems using 4" diaphragm drivers on low Fc horns above 15" cones (horn or front load) the "sweet spot" for sound quality varied with the configuration from as low as 500Hz to around 1000Hz.
The cone radiators were of the usual wood pulp variety.
The gnarliest 15"s still sounded better than the best horn/compression drivers at around 500Hz.
Directivity and HF driver excursion issues aside, I've always prefer to reduce the bandwidth of any single horn driver to as little over a decade of operation as possible. 800-8kHz stretched another octave to 16kHz is not bad, 600-6kHz starts to need a tweeter.
2kHz to 20kHz?
No problem.
200 to 20kHz with one diaphragm?
No.
Art
Im pretty sure I did, but its hard to recall, was a while ago... If I include the flat part of the mouth, thats 90degrees, the horn is ~34" x 19.5" vs the 32.5"x17" woofer baffle. Otherwise I really enjoy your sense of humor on the other comments, I am still laughing
Last edited:
Having spent some of my early years listening to an Edison Victrola with a horn very similar to yours, I still laugh when I see your avatar.
It also could cover 200Hz to 20kHz, but the top two octaves were just surface noise.
I didn't realize until 30 years later that we had cranked the player's speed control to maximum, everything was pitched up a half octave or so...
It also could cover 200Hz to 20kHz, but the top two octaves were just surface noise
.I didn't realize until 30 years later that we had cranked the player's speed control to maximum, everything was pitched up a half octave or so...
Why aren't we talking objectively towards measurements then?
ok well Now we have newer Drivers so.... I don't know.... but you will say things and I will learn. One thing I have seen is people claiming an SQ issue tied to how many octaves a driver is covering.... One thing I have not seen is evidence that there is any truth to it. @gedlee has been critical of many aspects of my design, and the it appears to me, that within Xmax, or maybe within low excursion, IMD/THD is not an issue, regardless the bandwidth.
In the context of this discussion it might be interesting what Aries Cerat write about the design principles of their Aurora speaker.
It uses a huge compression driver for the midrange which can go very low:
https://aries-cerat.com/aurora-product-page/
I listened to this speaker at High End Munich 2022 and 2023, it is one of the best sounding speakers I ever listened to.
It uses a huge compression driver for the midrange which can go very low:
https://aries-cerat.com/aurora-product-page/
I listened to this speaker at High End Munich 2022 and 2023, it is one of the best sounding speakers I ever listened to.
LOLQes measured just fine on the 18h+
View attachment 1283573
Sure does
View attachment 1283577
@docali Like myself... you are a victim blamer....but in this instance... I am innocent. 😇
innocent is generally relative, not really predictable....
Not necessary.
From their web page:
So we are in the range of the general rule of thumb 2 x the designated cut-off. Btw, if you carefully study the literature about tractrix then you may recognize that this drag curve was never "invented" as a horn profile. To relate the drag length to mouth radius was done a few hundred years later. So, the relevance of cut-off for a tractrix profile has less meaning. Second, the mouth size of a tractrix horn is too small, I showed this in my article about a true expansion tractrix horn. But wrtt my personal impression is that you are quite resistant to advice, at least from my side.
wrt the "butterfly patch" I have not seen a single good quality photo of your horn/setup (maybe I missed that in this thread) that was good enough to assess anything. So please give us an evidence where this patch is and if it is relevant.
As a note, I know both sides of this story and can only say that the two versions are not congruent. But it seems to me that you have simply left out important details of the agreements here. Furthermore, I think it is questionable if someone discloses internal agreements for a transaction without the other person's consent.
IF the vendor is doing things that future potential customers would definitely not like to hear, of course, they would want everything to remain confidential..... Don't be naive. What type of idiot would not discuss details of an important transaction with his elders/consultants??? Thats like date rape and expecting the victim to remain confidential because before we agreed to not tell anyone that we were going to start going steady. As soon as their is a violation, the confidentiality agreement is null and void. Actually I am going to spread the message. Meanwhile the vendor is saying but you said you weren't going to tell anybody and the victim is saying I never agreed to get raped either...
Like I said you are a victim blamer but not a logical one. I would ask that you explain what it is that I left out, but I know you won't... you don't want to be proven wrong so you will hide. Thats makes your comments, non factual but accusation, where as I have provided actual events that have come to pass. The only agreement I made was to pay the original amount of money (not what I actually ended up paying) and to not to talk about pricing..... How the frosted flakes am I supposed to figure if I'm getting ripped off if I can't talk to my advisers about it. What a joke. By the time I accidently disclosed the pricing in this thread, cause yes when I noticed that within the shipping paper I posted had some product pricing info on it, the vendor had already already requested more money and taken 4x longer than promised....
"
"The version indicates the cutoff, i.e. the lower cutoff frequency. We recommend the use from approx. fc x >1.5 to achieve a frequency response as linear as possible." - @Docali you know better than this.... Define the definition of Cutoff, before you suggest what cutoff to use..... I asked for a 150hz horn.....
Explain this while you are at it
Apparently being honest to potential future customers wasn't in the agreement either.... Dig the hole deeper why don't ya LOL
Last edited:
It is quite cumbersome for me to discuss with you, as you generally ignore/negate common standards/definitions. So, a future vendor should IMO carefully read this thread before selling you anything.
And from the pictures you provided - again completely unusable to assess anything - I cannot see anything to complain about. Just a huge amount of solid wood used. Before you blame other people ... JUST SHOW US SOME GOOD QUALITY PHOTOS OF YOUR HORNS IN YOUR CURRENT SETUP! And not photos as screenshots from other web pages. imo you are NOT a victim!
And from the pictures you provided - again completely unusable to assess anything - I cannot see anything to complain about. Just a huge amount of solid wood used. Before you blame other people ... JUST SHOW US SOME GOOD QUALITY PHOTOS OF YOUR HORNS IN YOUR CURRENT SETUP! And not photos as screenshots from other web pages. imo you are NOT a victim!
The truth is evident in the choice of crossover frequencies competent designers have chosen for multi-way systems using compression drivers on horns for nearly 100 years.
Not very huge compared to the 318mm (12.5") diameter Community Sounds M4 compression driver, designed for coverage of the 200-2kHz range.
Using a 6.5" composite diaphragm, the bottom end of the M4 still did not sound as good as a cone driver.
Although many of the design principles used in the Aurora are on the weird side, their use of a horn to cover only one decade of operation is a "sound" choice.