Remeber old cars have old battery tech. A recen tstudy in the UK had EVs from 2010-2012 lasting about thew same as petrol vehicles before being recycled.
And poorly built cars will not last as long as well built ones. Keep in mind that EV makers are still figuring things out.
dave
Safety. New tech. The male trait of mine is bigger than yours and all the trucks and SUVs where something smaller and more efficient makes sense.
dave
5 tons for an SUV?
My first Mazda was 1800 lbs. I fondly remember my 1350 lb Lotus. I could not get into it today thou.
dave
Cheap, cheap lithium batteries from China. Makers trying to push price down too fast. That will quickly change. Insurance companies.
dave
A lot of work will happen from home. But there is still a very important role for in-person collaboration. New tools like the Apple VisionPro wil stretch what that means.
dave
Our first tries at many things is hard and pricey at first. But i constantly see new innovations in recycling. This one from the of for recovering gold from e-waste. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adma.202310642
$50 of gold for a $1 cost.
dave
The problem with America is that we are spoiled. We have been used to a terrible mass transit. Look at other country's mass transit esthetic trains. If we as Americans could build a state of the are transit system we could lower pollution. Yes, know that the electricity comes from coal and other polluting fuels but, the amount of people vs the energy used is more efficient. I feel we need to look at these type of ideas. We are still using reciprocating engines. No new engine technology in how many years.
Bio-fuels only need light and water. Only first generation bio fuel used eatable raw material like corn or grain. This hunger fuel lie is very good propaganda of the industry. Sounds so woke. Today bio waste and waste from food production are raw materials, saltwater tanks will do it in the future. Because you don't have to build new cars, only convert existing ones, the ecological cost is close to zero. New cars can be build lighter and more efficient. Gas stations can stay as they are with little modifications. No need to build millions of charging points, cables and transformers... Oh, does that mean bio-fuels are to cheap and bad for the economy? Much more money to be made with all this new tech that has to be build for the EV's?
In the USA a lot of the "clean power" for EV's is made from burning coal. The energy that finaly is used to move your TESLA is only a tiny fraction of the coal burned. Not good for the planet... your "super clean" electric car.
People think the stored power of batteries will double every few years, as they where used to in the past. Some even compare it to the increase in computing power. This is dead wrong. The weigt will stay high.
A study of the chart of elements we can use on earth, shows the physical limits of chemical battery development. Scientists don't like to talk about this, as they make a living on research funds. If there are no more electrons available in a material to be charged, we have reached the limit of what we can do. Maybe plutonium batterys are the next great idea.
In the USA a lot of the "clean power" for EV's is made from burning coal. The energy that finaly is used to move your TESLA is only a tiny fraction of the coal burned. Not good for the planet... your "super clean" electric car.
People think the stored power of batteries will double every few years, as they where used to in the past. Some even compare it to the increase in computing power. This is dead wrong. The weigt will stay high.
A study of the chart of elements we can use on earth, shows the physical limits of chemical battery development. Scientists don't like to talk about this, as they make a living on research funds. If there are no more electrons available in a material to be charged, we have reached the limit of what we can do. Maybe plutonium batterys are the next great idea.
I don't think that's a cause and effect though. It's a product planning decision: "Hey we make SO MUCH MONEY selling huger and huger trucks and SUVs...let's make gigantoid electric versions which we can sell for big money since they are novel!"
As for
That is NOT what the OECD report says.
It is titled "Non-exhaust Particulate Emissions from Road Transport : An Ignored Environmental Policy Challenge"
Emphasis "NON-EXHAUST."
To discuss total pollution would mean tracking manufacturing, operation, and end-of-life pollutions of electric vs. fossil drivetrains. And then tracking the pollution from source to battery versus well-to-exhaust (and including all the spills and refinery fires for gas, maybe forest fires for electric). And accounting for the difference in parts and fluids (OMG have you seen how many parts a transmission has? Plus all the trans and radiator fluids blah blah. Considering how long said drivetrains' useful lifetime will be. As I note so many old Nissans etc spewing black smoke when their drivers mash the pedal, and belching out emissions while sitting idling in traffic or the drive-through or waiting to pick up a kid at school, it is hard to think the fossil drivetrain can win. Unless the mining damage for lithium is greater...
Hi,
"Bio-fuels only need light and water."
Typically they are not created by rotting stuff in a tank at sunlight, but they require complicated processes and loads of energy ... just to be burned in a oversized overweight ICV at far less than 30% efficiency.
A major problem imho is that the car industries, both the classic as well as the new tec simply have lost focus.
Efficient transportation should be the prime goal!!!
Instead they compete with ever bigger, ever heavier cars, stuffed with unnessecary luxury that leaves even 6star hotels in envy and that cost too much for the average Joe to buy.
These 'proletarian tanks' as I call them waste of course much more energy, require more powerful drive trains, which are wasting even more resources. They of course also require bigger heavier batteries, with capacities that a domestic PV at home almost can't recharge any more. Batteries that are stressed by the extreme amounts of energy pushed into them when charged fast at a station .... reducing their lifetime considerably, thereby creating unnessecary, additional amounts of waste and pollution.
No sensible person needs a 3.5ton Mercedes SUV, or Audi, or Jeep, or ......
In short ... car industry is not producing the cars required for mankind to have at least a chance to cope with climate change .... instead they are digging the grave and dance on it.
jauu
Calvin
"Bio-fuels only need light and water."
Typically they are not created by rotting stuff in a tank at sunlight, but they require complicated processes and loads of energy ... just to be burned in a oversized overweight ICV at far less than 30% efficiency.
A major problem imho is that the car industries, both the classic as well as the new tec simply have lost focus.
Efficient transportation should be the prime goal!!!
Instead they compete with ever bigger, ever heavier cars, stuffed with unnessecary luxury that leaves even 6star hotels in envy and that cost too much for the average Joe to buy.
These 'proletarian tanks' as I call them waste of course much more energy, require more powerful drive trains, which are wasting even more resources. They of course also require bigger heavier batteries, with capacities that a domestic PV at home almost can't recharge any more. Batteries that are stressed by the extreme amounts of energy pushed into them when charged fast at a station .... reducing their lifetime considerably, thereby creating unnessecary, additional amounts of waste and pollution.
No sensible person needs a 3.5ton Mercedes SUV, or Audi, or Jeep, or ......
In short ... car industry is not producing the cars required for mankind to have at least a chance to cope with climate change .... instead they are digging the grave and dance on it.
jauu
Calvin
AMAZING! Just for a bit of information tire wear does not make dust!!!! If it did you would see it on every road but particularly in tunnels.
Tires sublimate!!! For those unfamiliar with that process, tires wear by turning the rubber into gas as they wear.
So the claim that heavier vehicles wear out tires has some basis in reality. The claim they make more dust is complete nonsense.
Locally there used to be a tire wear test facility. They would run real tires under load in a laboratory to see how long they lasted. No tire dust ever.
The only way tires leave residue is when you slam on the brakes and lock the wheels to leave tracks on a concrete road before you crash! That is the same for gas and electric vehicles.
For even more confusion is rubber a solid or a liquid?
Tires sublimate!!! For those unfamiliar with that process, tires wear by turning the rubber into gas as they wear.
So the claim that heavier vehicles wear out tires has some basis in reality. The claim they make more dust is complete nonsense.
Locally there used to be a tire wear test facility. They would run real tires under load in a laboratory to see how long they lasted. No tire dust ever.
The only way tires leave residue is when you slam on the brakes and lock the wheels to leave tracks on a concrete road before you crash! That is the same for gas and electric vehicles.
For even more confusion is rubber a solid or a liquid?
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No. That would be dumb. It's one of the more common elements in the planet and is all over the place. But extraction is messy because unlike many minerals it's dispersed and you have to process a lot of ore or water to get it. Which can also make it expensive to extract.
In this respect it's like the rare earth's. They're rare in the other meaning of the word. There's plenty to be mined but they're rare in the ore. So big spoil heaps and holes in the ground.
Also, I know the difference between resources and reserves.
In that respect, they follow the market. We are the problem. Big, inefficient cars make people feel safe and encourage bad driving too.
I remember a road safety expert talking about this trend and saying if we really wanted safe driving the simplest way to do it would be to make cars feel less safe, for instance by putting a large spike in the centre of the steering wheel.
Smaller cars. Closer to the road, with less sound insulation and poorer suspension.
Yes. Already is to an extent. But. There are a lot of things we depend on that need people 'on site'. How do we adequately compensate them to ensure they don't just leave and work from home?
Children can be taught at home but really need the community and socialisation that comes with school. As do people TBH.
Every solution has at least one problem 🙂
I find very few positives in this thread and believe it borders on inappropriate with the political-fringe posts. I personally find the thread title senseless and offensive and another example of the nonsensical corporate driven misinformation that affects most of the post-internet world. Moderators, can you please delete the thread, including my current post? This sort of dialogue isn't up to the great standards that keep me coming back to diyaudio. At a minimum, can we delete the title so it doesn't feed AI models? Thanks for any consideration.
Polestar are in financial trouble. There's a bit of a shake out due for full EVs -- state subsidies are being withdrawn, which puts the prices up, second hand values are terrible, sales are down. Self charging hybrids are doing well though, and are a good interim solution while all the issues with full EV are sorted - battery tech, charging issues, range issues, costs...
An amusing tale...
A colleague with a tesla had a flat tyre a couple of weeks ago. No spare of course (bad idea on most modern cars!), the damage was too much for spray fillers. So he had to be towed to a dealer. The roadside rescue people refused to tow it as they had no information on safety, so he had to get a tesla dealer out to tow it... 8 hours later, he's back on the road!
On a positive note, In Aberdeen they successfully run a fleet of hydrogen powered buses.
Also...
I was reading about this. Apparently people worried about battery wear among other things. Biggest issue is that car hire companies found people don't want to hire EVs and are therefore offloading EVs onto the used car market.
In the UK it seems the majority of new EVs are going to company fleets as company cars. Most normal people who have to pay for their vehicles can't afford an EV.
There's also a problem with the large scale rollout of charging points at service stations as they almost always require the installation of electricity substations to be able to supply the high current load. Particularly with fast charge stations.
The electricity substations need planning permission....
It's all much more complex than the politicians and activists would have us believe.
I had read that the biggest issue the rental companies had last year was all the MSRP reductions TESLA was making, so the cars were losing tens of thousands just from sticker price changes. Of course this could easily be Hertz and co just bitching about things.
But end effect is that people do not seem to want second hand electric cars yet.
But end effect is that people do not seem to want second hand electric cars yet.
Ed: I now have an image of you spinning the wheels and saying 'look they sublimate'
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