Gets a lot of hype is an understatement. New generation DIYers have little faith in common sense.
Hi there
I have not read the whole thread yet but if you dont mind me asking
1) Why „max 5inch woofer?“
2) Are you going to pair them with a Sub?
3) "I struggled with my last attempt at a 2-way with an 8" woofer,“ No many 8 inch do well in two way but there are examples.
That said there are almost none that will work well in a 10 liter enclosure . At least not if you want deep bass
4) "With a 10L cabinet and the right midbass I am wondering if a 2 way might be acceptable…“ if you go 2way you have a lot of choices.
But you will never get „subwoofer“ style deep bass if you dont build basically a Monitor with integrated subwoofer.
So a 3 way , a bit like the https://barefootsound.com/footprint03/.
You could get a very decent bass using 8-9 of the liters for the „sub“ and the other 1-2 liters for the Midrange.
5) 2 Way with 5 inch there are a lot, but it wont be the same cause if you put too much strain on the bass side the tradeoff will be loosing agility in the mids .
I would like to give some advice here, hope it makes sense.
A nearfield monitor traditionally usually had forward midrange to detect errors in a mix. For this reason they usually are horrible sounding harsh and fatiguing. The mantra was that if you make your mix sound good on a near field the track will translate well to any other system.
So is this what you want? Are you making music or just listening.
Secondly I see you want as much bass as possible. To be honest I cannot remember hearing a small near field (say 4”) with bass that I can live with, it’s either booming with lack of dynamics and lows or just not there at all, alternatively the mid suffer. A sub is needed.
I have the Genelec 8020 myself and they are not the worst but at a desk they also suffer from booming, on a stand they suffer from lacking body.
But they detect errors in the mix so I keep them. I can’t listen to them for long though, they take the magic of music away.
So I build mains for the fun times.
Now if you can go up to 6,5” it’s a very different topic. Genelec 8040 is quite fanstastic as an example. Still harsh but the bass is so much more controlled.
If you’re not a producer though I don’t see why you would want a monitor.
Perhaps aim for something like large classic Sonus Faber bookshelf’s instead, like the 91 extrema or the electa.
A nearfield monitor traditionally usually had forward midrange to detect errors in a mix. For this reason they usually are horrible sounding harsh and fatiguing. The mantra was that if you make your mix sound good on a near field the track will translate well to any other system.
So is this what you want? Are you making music or just listening.
Secondly I see you want as much bass as possible. To be honest I cannot remember hearing a small near field (say 4”) with bass that I can live with, it’s either booming with lack of dynamics and lows or just not there at all, alternatively the mid suffer. A sub is needed.
I have the Genelec 8020 myself and they are not the worst but at a desk they also suffer from booming, on a stand they suffer from lacking body.
But they detect errors in the mix so I keep them. I can’t listen to them for long though, they take the magic of music away.
So I build mains for the fun times.
Now if you can go up to 6,5” it’s a very different topic. Genelec 8040 is quite fanstastic as an example. Still harsh but the bass is so much more controlled.
If you’re not a producer though I don’t see why you would want a monitor.
Perhaps aim for something like large classic Sonus Faber bookshelf’s instead, like the 91 extrema or the electa.
I'm listening to ported 2-way with 4" W12CY001 right now in my medium sized room (3.5m x 4.5m) and they do an excellent job of filling the space at reasonable levels. Dynamic and clean. Bass extends to about 45Hz in-room (room EQ employed, but not boosted low end).
My room is brick. Perhaps in a more lossy dry-wall room the bass and output level would be less fulfilling. 🤷♂️
My room is brick. Perhaps in a more lossy dry-wall room the bass and output level would be less fulfilling. 🤷♂️
@Tenson Yeah. I think the thing is lots of tweeters measure well on-axis, crossed at 3kHz. It's when you try to pull them down to 1kHz and look at their off-axis responce things get hairy.
@spankous
1) thats the size that will fit in the cabinet i have
2) no. at least not at this stage.
3) yeah that project had a rather larger enclosure. unrelated to the current project, it was just an example of problems i had encountered
4/5) yeah, that's about my original question on should i go 2-way or 3-way. the concensus seemed to be that EQ and the right driver would get me there in a 2-way.
@fabricadetabaco
Anyway what i really want now is a nice low-distortion preferably metal dome tweeter as i can't seem to get Bliesma anywhere here in the UK
@spankous
1) thats the size that will fit in the cabinet i have
2) no. at least not at this stage.
3) yeah that project had a rather larger enclosure. unrelated to the current project, it was just an example of problems i had encountered
4/5) yeah, that's about my original question on should i go 2-way or 3-way. the concensus seemed to be that EQ and the right driver would get me there in a 2-way.
@fabricadetabaco
No. Ok i did say 'monitor', i should maybe not have done. they are for general listening, up close, at my computer, not music production. unfortunatly i can only really go to 5" in the cabinet frames i already have. they will be sealed vcabinets, not vented so booming will hopfully be eliminated, at the risk of it just not being there.
Anyway what i really want now is a nice low-distortion preferably metal dome tweeter as i can't seem to get Bliesma anywhere here in the UK
They are built different.
Smaller surround - less influence of it and better off axis behaviour cause less radiation area. But not going as deep as a ScanSpeak for example.
They glue the membrane directly to the frontplate - there is no step of an additional front plate! And when you add the special geometry of the T25A you have a significant wider radiation as all the other 25mm tweeters. Even T34A has wider radiation as most 25-28mm tweeters!
They have a nice, small frontplate and the B version has it's membrane resonance at 50kHz, all the other B membranes I know at about 35kHz. So they built more stable membranes.
They have better sensitivity as most - but can't take as much power as a good ScanSpeak. A draw I would say.
So these other Beryllium tweeters also sound great but I prefer the Bliesmas.
Can you show me a better tweeter as T25A for the price? THD is VERY low, off axis behaviour is unmatched. You can cross over at 2kHz (I'm doing so with T25A and T25B).
There are a lot of nice tweeters in the market, these are simply in the group of the top performance ones.
Bigger than 10 litres, but listenign to a quite small ML-TL with 2 x 4”. My room is much larger and they fill the room. And have quite decent bass.
dave
No. Over time i have developed a distaste (not really that strong) for the compromises one has to make with most domes.
dave
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The T25A or B are clearly great tweeters but I don't get the hype considering the high cost. I think the SB26ADC is very close in performance for a lot less money. Comparing directly on HiFi Compass the SB26ADC has lower distortion from 1KHz to 2KHz and above 7KHz. The T25A wins from 3KHz to 7KHz.
The SB26CDC is even lower distortion than the ADC version, but there are not measurements I can point you at right now.
WRT dispersion I agree a small face plate is great if you are not using a waveguide, but I'm not going to pay that much for it, lol. I'd use a waveguide anyway and in that regard these tweeters each perform quite similar, I think?
The SB26CDC is even lower distortion than the ADC version, but there are not measurements I can point you at right now.
WRT dispersion I agree a small face plate is great if you are not using a waveguide, but I'm not going to pay that much for it, lol. I'd use a waveguide anyway and in that regard these tweeters each perform quite similar, I think?
In my opinion, best value hard dome tweeters are Bliesma T25A, Seas TBC/GB (i have both) and SB26ADC/CDC. Yes, for the Bliesma you pay a bit - but much less than all Beryllium tweeters, and it's made with nice materials efford for the motor that gives then maybe overall 3 dB peak SPL capability (2 Tesla in a long gap helps a lot with efficiency and compression) in comparison with the SB26ADC, very lightweight variable thickness dome with bit wider dispersion without diffusor, smaller faceplate. Breakup resonance >>30kHz. Seas TBC/GB performs also great and has very good measurements, same class as SB26ADC/CDC i think (but the SB is cheaper). Seas DXT is also in that performance class when you can take use of the waveguide.
Would you mind sharing the dimensions (in cm not feet etc 🙂) of the Enclosure and also the thickness of the material ?
Maybe best a picture + dimensions
"...unfortunatly i can only really go to 5" in the cabinet frames i already have. they will be sealed vcabinets, not vented so booming will hopfully be eliminated, at the risk of it just not being there.“
"not vented so booming will hopfully be eliminated, at the risk of it just not being there.“ -can you elaborate on this sentence ? Not sure i understand
"in the cabinet frames i already have“ - So you mean there are pre made „milled-carved (dont know the word in english) positions
where you want to place the drivers or what do you mean exactly ? Cause i thought you want to go Diy in which case tis could be solved
And dont know if i asked before, whats the Budget?
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@Kwesi i actualy have a pair of seas DXT. they were waiting on another project but this one could end up with them first.
@spankous Right yes. 40cm*17.5cm*21cm. The walls are 1.3cm thick Tufnol, a phenolic cotton composite. It's extremely dense, rigid and somewhat self damping. It's also not cheap. I got lucky on ebay and got the majority of the cabinets (top, bottom and sides) in a lot of "old bakelite scrap" beautifly machined already, they have the look of some university learning aid/demo rig from the 60s. They are asking to be speaker cabinets. The extra Tufnol for the front and back baffle is arriving this week hopfully. £130 for 4 * 18*40 sheets 😵 . So yes i am DIYing, and this is why i have such a constraint on the cabinets. I'll post some pictures at some point, there isn't much to see at the moment and i'd really like to have the drivers in front of me beffore i start routing out holes for them in this expensive material.
@spankous Right yes. 40cm*17.5cm*21cm. The walls are 1.3cm thick Tufnol, a phenolic cotton composite. It's extremely dense, rigid and somewhat self damping. It's also not cheap. I got lucky on ebay and got the majority of the cabinets (top, bottom and sides) in a lot of "old bakelite scrap" beautifly machined already, they have the look of some university learning aid/demo rig from the 60s. They are asking to be speaker cabinets. The extra Tufnol for the front and back baffle is arriving this week hopfully. £130 for 4 * 18*40 sheets 😵 . So yes i am DIYing, and this is why i have such a constraint on the cabinets. I'll post some pictures at some point, there isn't much to see at the moment and i'd really like to have the drivers in front of me beffore i start routing out holes for them in this expensive material.
The Seas Dxt is great!
Well this evens the path a bit imho
I dare to make a suggestion. Use your enclosures and build good Monitors but dont set deepest bass as priority but rather
build a subwoofer to support them. Subwoofers are the easiest thing to build.
When you said Dxt i imeddiately thought of these (sorry they are in German)
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/dxt-mon/
OR
https://www.hifialex.de/next-monitor/
To me and in all honesty this is the best solution because they happen to be centered around your tweeters and are fantastic speakers.
You will simply not get subwoofer bass out of your 10 liter speakers. Not comparable to an actual 8 or 10 inch sub.
Build them and if bass is not sufficient build a subwoofer. You can build 1 or 2 and you have a lot more flexibility with the form and „abusing“ them via Dsp etc without sacrificing the little woofers that are fighting to give you also good midrange
Well this evens the path a bit imho
I dare to make a suggestion. Use your enclosures and build good Monitors but dont set deepest bass as priority but rather
build a subwoofer to support them. Subwoofers are the easiest thing to build.
When you said Dxt i imeddiately thought of these (sorry they are in German)
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/dxt-mon/
OR
https://www.hifialex.de/next-monitor/
To me and in all honesty this is the best solution because they happen to be centered around your tweeters and are fantastic speakers.
You will simply not get subwoofer bass out of your 10 liter speakers. Not comparable to an actual 8 or 10 inch sub.
Build them and if bass is not sufficient build a subwoofer. You can build 1 or 2 and you have a lot more flexibility with the form and „abusing“ them via Dsp etc without sacrificing the little woofers that are fighting to give you also good midrange
I got to think about one of the better JBL Plus One 5.25" Won`t that fit? You would have to measure TS parameters yourself I think, as I doubt they are available on spec sheets.
Good luck and Cheers!
Good luck and Cheers!
I don't like Seas DXT very much. They measure well but sound 'messy'. Still good value though. I can only suppose this is due to the intentional diffraction. If you see the impulse response it's a bit of a mess, maybe that is why I find them sounding like that.
With the current shortage of beryllium foil, a very good stand-in is the Satori TW29TXN with textreme dome. I have experience with both this tweeter and the Satori TW29BNWG (beryllium dome with waveguide), and in terms of detail, clarity, and overall realism, I would rate them as equivalent.
j.
j.
I'm also not a friend of this driver. Heared this Seas drivers in plenty of speakers, even owned one with the DXT in it. It's obtrusive for me. And the waveguide is to small for a design I like.
A friend of mine who is also a sound engineer used to build a lot with this generation of Seas Drivers and did not long ago a design with a T25A. He was surprised how much better and more relaxed this driver plays, even with more off axis level and more hf in the room. I had a big grin when reading his message, I told him for quite a while 🤓
Now he is doing a design with the T25B ... looking forward to the next conversation 😉