It is worth looking at ideas in the off grid community, one person got old submarine batteries, each cell was the size of a filing cabinet, for storage.
There was an idea / product called a wall battery, from Tesla IIRC.
And if you look at the old Mad Max movies...lots of power source ideas.
The Japanese company Niigata developed power plants for small loads, one was a skid mounted 40 kW turbine generator run by natural gas for roof mounting if needed, much lighter than a diesel unit.
Another innovation they did was to develop engines with lasers as a substitute for spark plugs, to generate power from garbage dump / land fill sites. That gas contains H2S, and pressure can vary, a tough ingredient to handle.
In sum, this discussion is moving towards alternate energy...
And, aesthetic solar roof shingles are available, and expensive.
So you can offer to pay for your neighbor's solar installation with those if it offends your tastes.
Grid tied solar is very common here, people report nearly zero power bills on 10 kW loads, if they invest what is really the price of a small car for their initial solar install. Agreements with power company are up to 30 years, so you are protected from future price rises.
In India, 85 % of our crude oil is imported, some from politically volatile areas.
We have plenty of natural gas, wind and solar.
So the Indian government has decided to move towards renewable sources, based on what is plentiful here.
You must also consider what is better for you, it may not be the same solution as the ones here.
In Venezuela, gasoline is 10 cents or so a liter IIRC, so the equations for alternate energy have to take those into account.
There are reports of developing alternate types of batteries which do not use lithium, so long term requirements for lithium may not be as expected...
The Indian company Ashok Leyland has developed and deployed city buses with ultra capacitors for storage, charge up times are much shorter.
In sum, the problems are being solved in different ways, and some solutions are practical in tropical regions or in some countries, what may be routine in India would not work in Canada.
Canada is at a temperature that requires central heating for people much of the year, per capita energy needs are high.
India needs more cooling for the most part, freezing and snow are in areas with a low population, and that is for maximum 6 weeks annually.
There was an idea / product called a wall battery, from Tesla IIRC.
And if you look at the old Mad Max movies...lots of power source ideas.
The Japanese company Niigata developed power plants for small loads, one was a skid mounted 40 kW turbine generator run by natural gas for roof mounting if needed, much lighter than a diesel unit.
Another innovation they did was to develop engines with lasers as a substitute for spark plugs, to generate power from garbage dump / land fill sites. That gas contains H2S, and pressure can vary, a tough ingredient to handle.
In sum, this discussion is moving towards alternate energy...
And, aesthetic solar roof shingles are available, and expensive.
So you can offer to pay for your neighbor's solar installation with those if it offends your tastes.
Grid tied solar is very common here, people report nearly zero power bills on 10 kW loads, if they invest what is really the price of a small car for their initial solar install. Agreements with power company are up to 30 years, so you are protected from future price rises.
In India, 85 % of our crude oil is imported, some from politically volatile areas.
We have plenty of natural gas, wind and solar.
So the Indian government has decided to move towards renewable sources, based on what is plentiful here.
You must also consider what is better for you, it may not be the same solution as the ones here.
In Venezuela, gasoline is 10 cents or so a liter IIRC, so the equations for alternate energy have to take those into account.
There are reports of developing alternate types of batteries which do not use lithium, so long term requirements for lithium may not be as expected...
The Indian company Ashok Leyland has developed and deployed city buses with ultra capacitors for storage, charge up times are much shorter.
In sum, the problems are being solved in different ways, and some solutions are practical in tropical regions or in some countries, what may be routine in India would not work in Canada.
Canada is at a temperature that requires central heating for people much of the year, per capita energy needs are high.
India needs more cooling for the most part, freezing and snow are in areas with a low population, and that is for maximum 6 weeks annually.
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India is importing wood, as our forests have been damaged by over harvesting.
Logs are processed at large plants, sawdust is burned or added to waste plastic (at times fresh plastic is used), to make wood polymer composite sections.
Chips are used for chipboard, my peanut roaster buys shavings for fuel.
Burma Teak, Canadian Pine / Douglas Fir, African Mahogany / ebony / ironwood...huge variety here.
But we are frugal people, little is wasted...shipping chips for fuel is well, stupid, but what do expected from the people who shut down their coal and nuclear plants to buy Russian gas, and then cut the gas to spite the Russians...talk about shooting yourself in the foot...
Like I said previously, every region has a unique solution, that line above may be political, but the consequences of poor planning and political show off have affected the voters, they will tell the elected people when the time comes.
Moderators, your call, if you feel it is a statement violating forum rules.
Logs are processed at large plants, sawdust is burned or added to waste plastic (at times fresh plastic is used), to make wood polymer composite sections.
Chips are used for chipboard, my peanut roaster buys shavings for fuel.
Burma Teak, Canadian Pine / Douglas Fir, African Mahogany / ebony / ironwood...huge variety here.
But we are frugal people, little is wasted...shipping chips for fuel is well, stupid, but what do expected from the people who shut down their coal and nuclear plants to buy Russian gas, and then cut the gas to spite the Russians...talk about shooting yourself in the foot...
Like I said previously, every region has a unique solution, that line above may be political, but the consequences of poor planning and political show off have affected the voters, they will tell the elected people when the time comes.
Moderators, your call, if you feel it is a statement violating forum rules.
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^ @NareshBrd
Well, this being an AUDIO forum...
Put another log on the fire.
Cook me up some bacon and some beans.
And go out to the car and change the tyre.
Wash my socks and sew my old blue jeans.
Come on, baby, you can fill my pipe,
And then go fetch my slippers.
And boil me up another pot of tea.
Then put another log on the fire, babe,
And come and tell me why you're leaving me.
😉
Well, this being an AUDIO forum...
Put another log on the fire.
Cook me up some bacon and some beans.
And go out to the car and change the tyre.
Wash my socks and sew my old blue jeans.
Come on, baby, you can fill my pipe,
And then go fetch my slippers.
And boil me up another pot of tea.
Then put another log on the fire, babe,
And come and tell me why you're leaving me.
😉
In my area probably a third of houses have solar panels tied to the grid via an inverter. Most cannot be seen from the street. Mine certainly can't (and I have 21 panels). I almost don't have to pay for electricity, and that is with air conditioning and a swimming pool pump running 8 hours a day. Equally importantly, I am almost not using electricity generated from fossil fuels., It is worth it!
Many newer homes are built using corrugated steel roofing with a coating of a similar colour to the solar panels (branded 'Colorbond' here) in cases where they can't avoid the panels being visible.
Commenting on Naresh's post above, we have a few community battery trials in the surrounding suburbs using Tesla branded battery arrays, at this stage being only small scale (one being a 1.1 mWh battery feeding 100 homes for example).
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Oh hell, why not...
I feel a bit biased, as I worked in the Petroleum industry since the Regan administration, but one only has to research "Energy Density" to understand these Tesla Li-Ion batteries have a fair bit to go before they really match petroleum products on a energy /weight - volume basis.
Even with the understanding the power generation differential ineffieciencies of both - 90% of power from Tesla batteries goes to the wheels, while still only 20% ICE goes to wheels - those Tesla Li-Ion batteries still trounced by petro (diesel/gasoline)....energy per unit volume - energy per unit weight....
Those batteries are quite heavy....we likely will never see a EV powered 747 for this reason (but yes, a small 9 passenger EV plane is already available). While cars, trains, trucks have no real issue with weight, it does matter...
I give Tesla a lot of credit tho - Tesla Batteries are getting better every year (energy density wise)... and you gotta just love Elon - he is a very smart engineer that understands all this, and smiling all the way to the bank... good for him! But is he the "Thomas Edison" of our generation or a "Bose"?
If it were me, I would focus more on getting ICE more efficient than just kicking that entire industry to the curb....
Now when they start making Uranium powered cars, that will have my attention...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
I feel a bit biased, as I worked in the Petroleum industry since the Regan administration, but one only has to research "Energy Density" to understand these Tesla Li-Ion batteries have a fair bit to go before they really match petroleum products on a energy /weight - volume basis.
Even with the understanding the power generation differential ineffieciencies of both - 90% of power from Tesla batteries goes to the wheels, while still only 20% ICE goes to wheels - those Tesla Li-Ion batteries still trounced by petro (diesel/gasoline)....energy per unit volume - energy per unit weight....
Those batteries are quite heavy....we likely will never see a EV powered 747 for this reason (but yes, a small 9 passenger EV plane is already available). While cars, trains, trucks have no real issue with weight, it does matter...
I give Tesla a lot of credit tho - Tesla Batteries are getting better every year (energy density wise)... and you gotta just love Elon - he is a very smart engineer that understands all this, and smiling all the way to the bank... good for him! But is he the "Thomas Edison" of our generation or a "Bose"?
If it were me, I would focus more on getting ICE more efficient than just kicking that entire industry to the curb....
Now when they start making Uranium powered cars, that will have my attention...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
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That's just it, it is a win win. First, you use it as kitty litter, and then you reuse it for your stove. I have been in many houses that smell like they are already on top of this idea.
That is true, and nothing new. My buddy who was 100% against any type of electrical or hybrid vehicles, For Reasons, used to parrot that talking point every day.
It's still not a deal breaker. Significantly reducing our use of petroleum fuels is a big part of cleaning up the only place we have to live.
I don't see gas and diesel vehicles going away, and I don't think they need to. Reducing use will have a big impact. And batteries will get better with expanding technology. You can bet on it.
Yes, hydrogen has a lot of energy in it.
Our late Honda Clarity FCEV had two high pressure tanks for a total of 5.5Kg. That was good for ~350 miles in the summer and ~320 in the winter.
The only issue with is that high pressure hydrogen is expensive to use as it has to be chilled and pressurized. I wonder what the energy density will be with solid state (chemical) hydrogen tank storage (much lower pressures). I image the mass will be the same, just stored at far lower pressures.
When that happens, the far lower cost will be a game changer... even if the politics of San Franciskovich don't like it.
Hydrogen FCEVs are, IMHO, the way to go for electrical generators and automobiles.
Until then, hydrocarbons are in the here and now.
Solar is nice but it's still only 18% efficient and not doable for mobile applications. I've thought about it, and I can hide them from the street view, but I think I'd rather get a Honda generator.
Battery storage... meh! I have been thinking of putting one in my house only so I can change my utility rate to a Time Of Day. Charge the battery at night and drain it in the afternoon.
As far as getting ICE more efficient... simple... it's called SERIAL HYBRID.... use a small ICE to operate very efficiently at very low pumping losses... use a CVT to drive a generator.. I mean, I've had three such cars over the years... they are simply awesome.
You know, the sad part is all the sad sacks who conflate EV with BEV and then start telling us about their trucks... when in reality a serial hybrid platform is ideal for a truck. Lots of low end torque.... Heck, an EV is ideal for a truck... just figure out how to generate the electricity... vide the diesel-electric train locomotive!
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And also understand I am not anti EV....but the technology is far from being a complete replacement like many are led to believe...
I would love love love to have a Tesla, but would treat it more like a motorcycle....mostly for fun and only on good days!
I would love love love to have a Tesla, but would treat it more like a motorcycle....mostly for fun and only on good days!
@john65b and the rest of you...
Excuse the upper case:
PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE 'EV' -ELECTRIC VEHICLE- WITH 'BEV' -BATTERY ELECTRIC ELECTRIC VEHICLE'
The hybrid EVs ( including PHEV) are working alternatives to an ICE/mechanical transmission... they are electric vehicles as well.
The hydrogen fuel cell ( FCEV) is also a fully workable alternative, fully worked out from the engineering point of view, only held up by the environazi leftist politics.
All your criticisms are based on the BEV.
From an honest engineering view point that takes into account system efficiency, a serial hybrid is by far the best! The BEV and FCEV have to take into account rather large system losses and the environmental issues of large batteries (BEV).
Excuse the upper case:
PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE 'EV' -ELECTRIC VEHICLE- WITH 'BEV' -BATTERY ELECTRIC ELECTRIC VEHICLE'
The hybrid EVs ( including PHEV) are working alternatives to an ICE/mechanical transmission... they are electric vehicles as well.
The hydrogen fuel cell ( FCEV) is also a fully workable alternative, fully worked out from the engineering point of view, only held up by the environazi leftist politics.
All your criticisms are based on the BEV.
From an honest engineering view point that takes into account system efficiency, a serial hybrid is by far the best! The BEV and FCEV have to take into account rather large system losses and the environmental issues of large batteries (BEV).
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I was steeped in this… my dad started working for BA (British American oil) since Eisenhower, and ended up being Gulf Canada’s top petroleum engineer.
dave
As an automobile enthusiast, lead foot and connoisseur of the many apex points throughout the Western Interstates, Highways, Roads and By Ways I have driven in 50+ years...
IMHO, and experience, having an electric motor driving the wheels is the best driving experience in the low to mid range speeds, up to 70 mph or so.
This is due to the instant on throttle response and maximum torque off the line.
The Honda iMMD system is a step forward over the serial hybrid as it connects the ICE directly to the wheels via a single, no multi gear, transmission. Below ~70 mph, the ICE is solely the electric generator and the electric motor is the motive force. Above 70, where the electric motor starts to run out of sufficient torque, the ICE become the primary motive force and the electric motor is the assist.
It is somewhat complicated to describe in a post but once you're driven it, it becomes of one those things that makes me happy the likes of Honda exists.. because they come out with the cleverest solutions (*) that makes you think... "why don't they tout their horn?"
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-a...378955-honda-two-motor-hybrid-electric-system
Anyhow, the current generation of top trims Honda Accord are all iMMD hybrids, they dumped the 2.0T. We'll see how it does, because that's THE car that can make EV ( serial hybrid EV ) as commonplace as French Vanilla ( Toyota is the plain vanilla, naturally )...
(*) I mean, we used to own an Integra GSR with an 8100rpm redline, then the Prelude with ATTS, then a bunch of Acura/Hondas with rear torque vectoring AWD.... and don't forget CVCC ad VTEC). My first Honda was a '77 CVCC Civic wagon... that thing was revolutionary for its time.
Exactly...in the US I travel about 30,000 miles per year...about 60% driven, 40% flying, business and grandkids in various regions.
An EV would be nice for short jaunts to the grocery or pharmacy.
Last time I was in India was a quarter century ago...I recall that the drivers in Kerala would keep the headlights off to save energy. (Our India trip this January is postponed to next year)
In urban and dense suburban areas EVs can make a certain amount of sense, but I still think that it's a crazy solution for rural areas and interstate travel. The countryside is already littered with gas stations and ICE vehicles. A green fuel that allows the continued use of existing infrastructure rather than the wholesale creation of a new paradigm is a substantially easier solution to implement. Porsche has been working on this and I understand that their plan is almost ready for commercial adoption.
After all, the alcohol in modern gasoline or e85 is carbon neutral.
Pete
As I think most realize, battery technology is on a coarse of continuous improvement.
However, for now (and perhaps a decade) I am a proponent of "HiTec Hybrid" vehicles.
The greater the demand, the better and more efficient they are likely to get.
Even CNBC recognizes that this is "where the money is". (for now)
In Australia, with our 'distance & terrain' Hybrid's are an ideal vehicle. (again - for now)
However, for now (and perhaps a decade) I am a proponent of "HiTec Hybrid" vehicles.
The greater the demand, the better and more efficient they are likely to get.
Even CNBC recognizes that this is "where the money is". (for now)
In Australia, with our 'distance & terrain' Hybrid's are an ideal vehicle. (again - for now)
My accountant kept the lights off on his scooter, to save gas, hit a stray buffalo...minor abrasive injuries, tetanus shot.
Idiot, 25W headlamp on those things...it was 20 odd years back, better street lights and roads now in India.
One man got head injuries from scooter hitting a speed hump in daytime, permanent damage (no helmet), in 1990, he was crippled, died about 2017, was about 22 when it happened...family also affected.
Here the city center to city center times will be changed by the bullet trains being built in phases, and I find that short distance surface trips take the same time as air, we have to travel to a distant airport both sides, and check in at least 45 minutes for departure for security reasons.
Trains use only 10% of the energy airplanes do per ton-kilometer, much less stress on environment.
From my city to Ahmedabad, center to center, it is 2.5 hours, 150 km but traffic at both ends, surface.
Air flight is 30 minutes, two daily, and airports are away from city center, takes 3 hours.
I take the bus, there is one every 15 minutes...
The EV use is needed if you do not have a mass transit system in place, or a metro train system.
Elon is a smart guy, but the Chinese are getting close, and their volumes are huge, see for yourself.
And they are catching up fast, their cheapest EV (battery) is only US $10,000 here.
Stick to South or West India, North is a tourist trap, East is wonky, Central is gradually improving.
Idiot, 25W headlamp on those things...it was 20 odd years back, better street lights and roads now in India.
One man got head injuries from scooter hitting a speed hump in daytime, permanent damage (no helmet), in 1990, he was crippled, died about 2017, was about 22 when it happened...family also affected.
Here the city center to city center times will be changed by the bullet trains being built in phases, and I find that short distance surface trips take the same time as air, we have to travel to a distant airport both sides, and check in at least 45 minutes for departure for security reasons.
Trains use only 10% of the energy airplanes do per ton-kilometer, much less stress on environment.
From my city to Ahmedabad, center to center, it is 2.5 hours, 150 km but traffic at both ends, surface.
Air flight is 30 minutes, two daily, and airports are away from city center, takes 3 hours.
I take the bus, there is one every 15 minutes...
The EV use is needed if you do not have a mass transit system in place, or a metro train system.
Elon is a smart guy, but the Chinese are getting close, and their volumes are huge, see for yourself.
And they are catching up fast, their cheapest EV (battery) is only US $10,000 here.
Stick to South or West India, North is a tourist trap, East is wonky, Central is gradually improving.
Trains would work in UK if you extended the tracks from the south coast where they already put 40 foot trucks on trains and haul them under the sea 500 miles further north with a couple of stops on the way.
That really would cut down on the diesel fumes massively on the freeway.
That really would cut down on the diesel fumes massively on the freeway.
Alcohol is great on the rocks... very expensive as a fuel though.
Hydrogen is the fuel most likely homogeneous with our current gasoline/diesel distribution.
Hydrogen is delivered in tanker trucks in low pressure form, but it requires pressurization for delivery to cars. The next step of hydrogen in cars will be low pressure, chemical storage, so that will make it much simpler to create hydrogen "stations" since they will not need the compression step.
Indeed, you could add the hydrogen fuel pumps alongside existing gasoline and diesel pumps. They look pretty much the same.
Again, though, you conflate BEV with EV.
Naturally, serial hybrids are the least painful way.
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