So instead of the tired "your system isn't revealing enough", subjectivist now have a new counterargument: your system isn't 3D enough.
This thread is turning out to be fun - the new "blowtorch" thread?! Hope it doesn't get shut down!
I don´t understand why you felt the need to ridicule this obvious fact.
As a matter of fact I did not even mention the word "system".
There are many reasons nothing having to do with subjectivists why you don't have a proper soundstage, like acoustic problems that are room related, loudspeakers that are too far apart because of interior restrictions etc, etc.
Hans
You are dragging a diamond along a very rough surface. It's easy to measure this. and it's about 50dB above the 16 bit dithered noise floor. We all know that position sensing cartridges sound different than velocity sensing as no one can agree on the eq. Just look at how much work KevinKR went through on strain guage carts to optimise the eq. It's different, but is it better? And vinyl cross talk and fundamental surface noise levels are unaffected.
Some other reason why 3D soundstage is MIA or not very good.
The system is out of absolute polarity OOP.
The system is in correct absolute polarity but the software used is OOP.
WIRE directionality rears its ugly head.
Vibration isolation is not up to par.
The speakers’ locations in the room shoukd be established by the out of phase track on XLO Test CD or similar. The best imaging will be found when the system is most diffuse when playing out of phase track. The sound should be coming at you equally from all around the room.
Good point about speakers being too far apart. Most speakers in most rooms should be around 5-6 feet apart, but not 8-10 feet apart. Unless one has the benefit of a very large room, of course.
The system is out of absolute polarity OOP.
The system is in correct absolute polarity but the software used is OOP.
WIRE directionality rears its ugly head.
Vibration isolation is not up to par.
The speakers’ locations in the room shoukd be established by the out of phase track on XLO Test CD or similar. The best imaging will be found when the system is most diffuse when playing out of phase track. The sound should be coming at you equally from all around the room.
Good point about speakers being too far apart. Most speakers in most rooms should be around 5-6 feet apart, but not 8-10 feet apart. Unless one has the benefit of a very large room, of course.
Listening with a good set of headphones can tell you just how much. I think room acoustics will be part of the reason this happens as well.
To my mind, the only reason you should follow cable directionality directives in the product brochure is because the connectors on either end may be different.
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My general opinion/experience about presumed cable directionality is the following.
The grain boundary seems to affect electrical resistivity in copper regarding to nano-technologies related to micro-chip built, but nothing I found in the literature about a preferred directionality of electric flow in (audio) cables.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.1c06367
And to be honest, even if I found it published by a cable manufacturer I would be a little reluctant to believe it.
However, from my (little) experience I've noticed that the electrical signal flowing through the cable may influence the cable itself sounding, over the time.
My personal observation is that if any speaker cable that you've been using for some months/years then you invert its direction between power amp and speakers then you may notice that they appear to sound different like you heard before.
I guess that the electrical signal and therefore the flow of electrons in the copper of the cables which continued over time could induced a kind of "directionality" to listening (that would obviously change again if you revert the cable again after months/year of use).
So also for fun I marked all my existing cables with arrows and I tend to always connect them in the same "auto-acquired directionality".
My experience is small and personal, but since it costs nothing and does not imply the expectation of an improvement because the cables are always the same then it may could be considered as a relative impartiality of judgment.
I don't know if others have had a similar experience to mine.
Just sharin'...
The grain boundary seems to affect electrical resistivity in copper regarding to nano-technologies related to micro-chip built, but nothing I found in the literature about a preferred directionality of electric flow in (audio) cables.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.1c06367
And to be honest, even if I found it published by a cable manufacturer I would be a little reluctant to believe it.
However, from my (little) experience I've noticed that the electrical signal flowing through the cable may influence the cable itself sounding, over the time.
My personal observation is that if any speaker cable that you've been using for some months/years then you invert its direction between power amp and speakers then you may notice that they appear to sound different like you heard before.
I guess that the electrical signal and therefore the flow of electrons in the copper of the cables which continued over time could induced a kind of "directionality" to listening (that would obviously change again if you revert the cable again after months/year of use).
So also for fun I marked all my existing cables with arrows and I tend to always connect them in the same "auto-acquired directionality".
My experience is small and personal, but since it costs nothing and does not imply the expectation of an improvement because the cables are always the same then it may could be considered as a relative impartiality of judgment.
I don't know if others have had a similar experience to mine.
Just sharin'...
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To be more precise, it's an illusion made in your brains, as mentioned in my earlier posting.
But there is nothing wrong with that, and no reason to be sceptical.
As an example, the lenses in your eyes are projecting the world upside down on your retina, but your brains are correction this.
With ITD your brains are able to tell you instantly where the sound was originated.
Our brains are fantastic machines to create whatever sort of illusion if needed.
Hans
I have not said that this illusion does not exist. I'm only weary of the various claims of superior 3D soundstage that can only be heard with *** speakers or some amp/dac/...
IME, playback loudspeaker/room interaction is most if not all of what our brain perceives (reconstructs?) as spatial information of a recording.
An easy experiment: Listen to your test recording through loudspeakers. Then disconnect the loudspeakers from the amplifier. Have the same amplifier drive your headphones. Listen to the same recording through the loudspeakers.
George
Of course. Stereo is a hoax if there ever was one! Hint: there is no singer between the speakers! There is no orchestra behind them. It's all inside your head* !
Jan
* I am preparing a presentation for next month with that title. Thanks Hans!
There are no separate instruments in an orchestra you are individually hearing either. There is only one pressure wave impinging on each eardrum. All the rest is an illusion.
Obviously this is subjective...but I think I've heard what I would call "3D soundstage" once. I'd upgraded a failed mech Kenwood DP-7090. Nothing major, PSU, OP Amps, most of the caps, some wiring, easy stuff. It stood me in for £75. At that time we knew the owner of a high end audio retailer, I'd never bought anything from him but it was the sort of place where you could buy a second hand system for £1500 or something "high end and expensive" for £150K to £200K.
We were allowed to use his second best demo room (8M x 12M I'd say), a system there would cost around £100K+ if new.
We tried my Kenwood against verious CD players (the cheaper ones!) of his up to £4K. (£1K, £2.5K, £4K) the Kenwood bested the cheaper two, being soundwise indistinguishable from the £4K one, other than in one aspect, the Kenwood having an uncanny sense of reverb and echo, one could hear what we all thought (5 of us) sounded like the extents of the recording venu (a small studio). It was as if there were "walls" placed inside the demo room It was something I've never heard before or since however much I've strived to. It was a bit like listening to a 5.1 or 7.1 system, though it was only stereo.
3D: Even if it would be "subjective", there are obviously different conditions that lead to different "subjective" 3D experiences of a, the, one, listener;-)
Erratum
The last sentense above should have been: Listen to the same recording through the headphones.
George
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