How should we call them? The wondrous magicians?
Now first here is the adopted baby from far east that will make you scratch your head about the plain ugliness :
https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/75-SATORI-MT19CP-4-GRAFIK.jpg
And Mr. Adopter himself with an answer in the comments :
So the answer is : The ROOM is healing everything! (any deficite)
Gosh! Never thought speaker development is so easy!
Some guys & girls have all the luck!?
Now first here is the adopted baby from far east that will make you scratch your head about the plain ugliness :
https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/75-SATORI-MT19CP-4-GRAFIK.jpg
And Mr. Adopter himself with an answer in the comments :
So the answer is : The ROOM is healing everything! (any deficite)
Gosh! Never thought speaker development is so easy!
Some guys & girls have all the luck!?
The room is the speaker(s)
and the speaker is the room
If you know how sound propagates...well, not yet sound, it's just pressure waves travelling at Mach1
and the speaker is the room
If you know how sound propagates...well, not yet sound, it's just pressure waves travelling at Mach1
I'm not your guru but obviously you like to have one that tells you everything about your world so you don't have to think for yourself!
Is it fair to say The Klippel Beast makes shiny curves for the owner which is happy to spend so much money on averaged-to-death curves showing the truth only & just behind a digital curtain of unknown structure/debth?
In a (good) studio recording environment the room is optimized for avoiding first strong reflections so no big blob of sound hiding details . Not very difficult to achieve . But if you look for most playback rooms you will find anything but rarely a "neutral" room where listening is enjoyable!
The idea to fix a bad speaker with a bad room AND confirm/optimize the results using an expensive machine from lost-in-leftism hellish Germoney is very strange indeed!
Maybe Klippel owners have a lot of money and like to press some colourfull buttons instead using their brain? Fancy Curves surely guaranteed!
It's a mad mad world , isn't it?
Is it fair to say The Klippel Beast makes shiny curves for the owner which is happy to spend so much money on averaged-to-death curves showing the truth only & just behind a digital curtain of unknown structure/debth?
In a (good) studio recording environment the room is optimized for avoiding first strong reflections so no big blob of sound hiding details . Not very difficult to achieve . But if you look for most playback rooms you will find anything but rarely a "neutral" room where listening is enjoyable!
The idea to fix a bad speaker with a bad room AND confirm/optimize the results using an expensive machine from lost-in-leftism hellish Germoney is very strange indeed!
Maybe Klippel owners have a lot of money and like to press some colourfull buttons instead using their brain? Fancy Curves surely guaranteed!
It's a mad mad world , isn't it?
This one should clarify some aspects involved here :
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cepoint-10-review-measurements-by-erin.45128/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cepoint-10-review-measurements-by-erin.45128/
Well, most of DIYA members are obsessed by measures. These curves are obtained by entering numbers on the two axys representing time, space, time/space( frequency). The microphone can express numbers such as amplitude ...
Frequency...
But I see the thread is about those Mofi speakers equipped with a modded SB coaxial...
Frequency...
But I see the thread is about those Mofi speakers equipped with a modded SB coaxial...
Interesting to see the tweeter flange is protruded here .. afaik it has a negative effect on the tweeter FR !!
Still more questions than answers!
Still more questions than answers!
Well it's a point of view.
I think you don't get the point though. A Klippel won't tell any thruth about how a loudspeaker will sound. It gives a view on a number of parameters which was not easily accessible otherwise.
From this and your own experience by listening to the loudspeaker in question you would make up your mind. And could see corelation between your feel and some parameters displayed by a Klippel.
Recently member B_Force summarised it well in my view:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...agnesium-marketing.399740/page-7#post-7369044
I disagree: a good control room acoustic is in no way easy to achieve. An RFZ can be easier to implement in a domestic room but almost no one wants to go to this as it screw aesthetic or for other good or bad reason...
Klippel gives info on what you could expect from an untreated room with loudspeaker under test. That won't tell you if it'll sound good or not though.
Where have you seen that expressed?! At ASR? Well it's their 'fond de commerce' what the audience is waiting for in there. It can be argued that in here we have a lot of 'subjectivism' at play from some hardcore ASR members.
I prefer here as everybody can express his pov ( right or wrong) and there is always something to learn from that.
Maybe yes, maybe not. Up to you to make your pov.
Marvoulaudio, i just don't get your point: have you listened to the loudspeaker and found it so bad it needs to be warned against? Or is this the analysis produced by Klippel which upset you?
I don't want to start a war, i'm geniously interested in your pov.
Last edited:
My motivation is simple : Can we achieve something similar as the Sourcepoint 8 by using the MT19CP-4 ??? By looking at the data sheet this seems to be quite questionable!
And I want to know why such a bad driver from SB can be turned into pure GOLD!
Legit question, right?
And I want to know why such a bad driver from SB can be turned into pure GOLD!
Legit question, right?
Totally legit.
But even if i'm more into the 'objective' side of things ( i use a mic and try to interpret data i collected) there is still subjectivism at work in me.
One thing i know from coax ( by having using them a lot and listening to a 'bad' pair (from the pov of ASR , mine are 800 but were plagued by same issue as described here - until i investigated to understand the why and cured the issue... 😉 - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/tannoy-system-600-speaker-review.11919/ ) of them right now : is that the ragged response in high is most always present but doesn't really mater in real life.
Believe it or not the 'bad' high end is no issue once you use them as described by Erin at the start of the video ( not in axis).
Sure you can do (way) better measuring loudspeakers using different technique ( horn loaded or even better in my view MEH if you want to keep similar to coaxial approach) but in practice it's not as bad as it looks.
It's a mater of preference at play too and if you are used to the compromise made for them to work other non coincident design can start to be annoying. Even in a non treated room.
But even if i'm more into the 'objective' side of things ( i use a mic and try to interpret data i collected) there is still subjectivism at work in me.
One thing i know from coax ( by having using them a lot and listening to a 'bad' pair (from the pov of ASR , mine are 800 but were plagued by same issue as described here - until i investigated to understand the why and cured the issue... 😉 - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/tannoy-system-600-speaker-review.11919/ ) of them right now : is that the ragged response in high is most always present but doesn't really mater in real life.
Believe it or not the 'bad' high end is no issue once you use them as described by Erin at the start of the video ( not in axis).
Sure you can do (way) better measuring loudspeakers using different technique ( horn loaded or even better in my view MEH if you want to keep similar to coaxial approach) but in practice it's not as bad as it looks.
It's a mater of preference at play too and if you are used to the compromise made for them to work other non coincident design can start to be annoying. Even in a non treated room.
Last edited:
I don't understand exactly what you are getting at. Specifically:
What point are you trying to make with the video clip that starts with him discussing price and whether he intends to make a subwoofer? That seems totally irrelevant to the topics you seem to be dancing around.
Do you know that they are using an SB Acoustics driver or are you assuming based on the look? Have you read the Stereophile review of the SourcePoint 10? It discusses the MoFi driver and its development. If he designed a new cone profile and used a different material for it, you can't really say it's the same driver even if they are both made by SB. It's like saying every ScanSpeak 6 inch driver is the same.
Are you implying that Klippel data is too smoothed to be useful? That it can't be right because of the SB driver response you show?
Are you trying to say that Andrew Jones doesn't know how to design a speaker?
Or is post #9 the actual question/point you are trying to make: whether you can use the SB driver to achieve similar performance? Because maybe you actually like Andrew Jones' design?
There's a vague, indirect, joking feel to most of the discussion here that makes it hard for me to tell what is sarcasm and personal opinion and what is trying to make a point or have a discussion. And exactly what that discussion should revolve around, since referring to an external document or video without a specific reference to what the point is just adds confusion. And I'm typically too lazy to click every link, watch every video, etc. A direct approach can produce a more useful discussion, especially when different native languages are involved.
What point are you trying to make with the video clip that starts with him discussing price and whether he intends to make a subwoofer? That seems totally irrelevant to the topics you seem to be dancing around.
Do you know that they are using an SB Acoustics driver or are you assuming based on the look? Have you read the Stereophile review of the SourcePoint 10? It discusses the MoFi driver and its development. If he designed a new cone profile and used a different material for it, you can't really say it's the same driver even if they are both made by SB. It's like saying every ScanSpeak 6 inch driver is the same.
Are you implying that Klippel data is too smoothed to be useful? That it can't be right because of the SB driver response you show?
Are you trying to say that Andrew Jones doesn't know how to design a speaker?
Or is post #9 the actual question/point you are trying to make: whether you can use the SB driver to achieve similar performance? Because maybe you actually like Andrew Jones' design?
There's a vague, indirect, joking feel to most of the discussion here that makes it hard for me to tell what is sarcasm and personal opinion and what is trying to make a point or have a discussion. And exactly what that discussion should revolve around, since referring to an external document or video without a specific reference to what the point is just adds confusion. And I'm typically too lazy to click every link, watch every video, etc. A direct approach can produce a more useful discussion, especially when different native languages are involved.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sorry I'm a lazy guy and I like to be a little provocative here and there ... so yes #9 is answer and question in one package! And of course I like AJs design very much! (right product/right time .. maybe even overdue)
The driver in question is to no avail just a picture and model name in a hifi show , SBA website of this driver is kinda dead! Here the old thread from 2018 .. it ends 3 years later with no progress! https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-sb-satori-coax.322644/
We still know nothing about this wondercone .... the graph I linked says revision 0/2018 , so I hope there HAS been some progress in between regarding this driver used by Andrew Jones!
If you compare with the KEF drivers .. the Q350 is around 450 euro for a pair!
And nearly perfect in measurements!
This one is simply not acceptable :
https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/75-SATORI-MT19CP-4-GRAFIK.jpg
The Q350 has lot of potential for tuning to taste : https://www.hifialex.de/
The closer you look the more opportunities!
What a wonderfull world ... (satchmo)
The driver in question is to no avail just a picture and model name in a hifi show , SBA website of this driver is kinda dead! Here the old thread from 2018 .. it ends 3 years later with no progress! https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-sb-satori-coax.322644/
We still know nothing about this wondercone .... the graph I linked says revision 0/2018 , so I hope there HAS been some progress in between regarding this driver used by Andrew Jones!
If you compare with the KEF drivers .. the Q350 is around 450 euro for a pair!
And nearly perfect in measurements!
This one is simply not acceptable :
https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/75-SATORI-MT19CP-4-GRAFIK.jpg
The Q350 has lot of potential for tuning to taste : https://www.hifialex.de/
The closer you look the more opportunities!
What a wonderfull world ... (satchmo)
Forgot this one , maybe tons of info , will be watched later :
Intro
0:48 What is the difference between SourcePoint 8 and 10?
6:44 Can you measure all the way?
10:07 Why should the off-axis response be similar to the on-axis?
14:08 Won't off-axis trigger the room?
22:05 Does a moving waveguide negatively impact sound quality?
35:15 Is every loudspeaker design a compromise?
39:38 Is 'true to source' nonsense?
47:56 Are all other loudspeakers merely versions of the truth?
Intro
0:48 What is the difference between SourcePoint 8 and 10?
6:44 Can you measure all the way?
10:07 Why should the off-axis response be similar to the on-axis?
14:08 Won't off-axis trigger the room?
22:05 Does a moving waveguide negatively impact sound quality?
35:15 Is every loudspeaker design a compromise?
39:38 Is 'true to source' nonsense?
47:56 Are all other loudspeakers merely versions of the truth?
So lets not forget these wonderfull coax drivers by SICA from Italy , very fair prices and the tweeter is even replaceable! (look in the datasheet PDF for order number)
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...5c1-5cp-8-coassiale-5-5-1-8-ohm-240-wmax.html
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...ers-w8-2314-coassiale-8-1-4-ohm-100-wmax.html
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...5c1-5cp-8-coassiale-5-5-1-8-ohm-240-wmax.html
https://www.dibirama.altervista.org...ers-w8-2314-coassiale-8-1-4-ohm-100-wmax.html
The tweeter lens does not protrude past the cone in a no-signal state.
The 8" is a 10" driver that had the cone cut smaller and the frame diameter reduced- that is it.
I heard the Mofi8, and if I didn't build and design for the enjoyment of it- I'd buy these and be done.
The 8" is a 10" driver that had the cone cut smaller and the frame diameter reduced- that is it.
I heard the Mofi8, and if I didn't build and design for the enjoyment of it- I'd buy these and be done.
That’s the one i watched.
49 min long, andm unlike most videos, worth watching all the way thru. A fairly through and well narrated journey on loudspeakers, rooms, and the usic they reproduce.
If you cn only fford a bit of time watch from 43 min on.
This pretty much aligns with my views on the subject. Althou i’d like to hear before and after with his loudspeaker time aligned. And he assumes we will be using an amplifier with a low output impednce (not from the video, from the measure impedance).
The bit how he mostly just “cropped” the 10” driver into an 8”, and just scaled the box (still some effort getting it tuned right if vented). Not a whole lot of control over the T/S given the same motor and a cone with the outer circumference removed. But this is a hugly clever insight into keeping R&D expensesway down.
dave
I respect AJ alot for his design talents, but many of them are a product of a tight corporate budgets and yet still they command a high cost. Almost everythng from Mofi is already expensive and not worth the asking price. Its a name recognition thing.
I'm not a fan at all and honestly very sick of audio bloggers who don't have the knowledge or experience to comment on the performance of their reviewed products. I can form my own opinions over the product if I'm actually given practical info I can use, but most of the videos I see are just alot of cheap filler and poorly edited, endless chatter. Alot of them to me are click bait if you look at the titles ie. "Best speaker I've ever heard", "You wont believe this" and complete waste of time I can't get back, plus I just made someone money on top of it.
Measurments are great if you can interpret them properly, but most of the time its just cheap filler. I'd rather have an educated, unbiased 3rd party listener interpret what they hear with various sources I'm familiar with instead of tons of measurements which often don't apply to the actual real world performance. I do like the pointsource 8s overall sound and character with jazz and acoustic music, but its not a "rock and roll" party speaker. The 10 inch version may be better in this regard thanks to its size, but most of rhe time there is a larger "hole" in the mids which can't be filled by a lower crossover point. You essentially are dealing with a compromise in design to start with instead of concentrating on one product which could be better than both.
I'm not a fan at all and honestly very sick of audio bloggers who don't have the knowledge or experience to comment on the performance of their reviewed products. I can form my own opinions over the product if I'm actually given practical info I can use, but most of the videos I see are just alot of cheap filler and poorly edited, endless chatter. Alot of them to me are click bait if you look at the titles ie. "Best speaker I've ever heard", "You wont believe this" and complete waste of time I can't get back, plus I just made someone money on top of it.
Measurments are great if you can interpret them properly, but most of the time its just cheap filler. I'd rather have an educated, unbiased 3rd party listener interpret what they hear with various sources I'm familiar with instead of tons of measurements which often don't apply to the actual real world performance. I do like the pointsource 8s overall sound and character with jazz and acoustic music, but its not a "rock and roll" party speaker. The 10 inch version may be better in this regard thanks to its size, but most of rhe time there is a larger "hole" in the mids which can't be filled by a lower crossover point. You essentially are dealing with a compromise in design to start with instead of concentrating on one product which could be better than both.
Btw - for the Pointsource 10 , price jumped from $3700 in 2022
to $5000 in 2023 , whats your income raise within one year?
Maybe his underwear has now a golden touch glowing in the dark 🙂
to $5000 in 2023 , whats your income raise within one year?
Maybe his underwear has now a golden touch glowing in the dark 🙂