There are a lot of used Wilson Audio speakers on sale.
Is there a reason?
Most people don't sell a good used car, but there are exceptions, such as when the owner dies and the family no longer wants the car.
Or, like a company that always has job openings like a revolving door.
If I pay over $10-$20k for a pair of speakers, I'm not going to turn around and attempt to sell them if they're good speakers.
Makes me wonder if Wilson Audio makes good products?
Is there a reason?
Most people don't sell a good used car, but there are exceptions, such as when the owner dies and the family no longer wants the car.
Or, like a company that always has job openings like a revolving door.
If I pay over $10-$20k for a pair of speakers, I'm not going to turn around and attempt to sell them if they're good speakers.
Makes me wonder if Wilson Audio makes good products?
Do you wonder if Honda makes good cars just because there are a lot of them on the used market?
Sure. I own a Honda and Wilson Audio speakers. Not selling either because they've been good. Didn't buy either to flip them for a profit or as an investment.
You always answer a question with a question?
You always answer a question with a question?
No, not at all. I was trying to follow your analogy.
You stated that most (by definition >50%) people don't sell good cars unless they're from deceased people or some other "exception". I was trying to follow your logic.
You seemed to want to indicate that cars => speakers on the market for reasons other than the owner's death (or an exception) may be bad because why else would people sell a good car => speaker.
Was that not the analogy / logic path you were trying to convey? If not, please explain.
Separately, if anyone purchased a typical Honda or Wilson speakers as an investment, they're fools. We know the saying about fools and their money. However, I'm not sure how that is relevant.
You stated that most (by definition >50%) people don't sell good cars unless they're from deceased people or some other "exception". I was trying to follow your logic.
You seemed to want to indicate that cars => speakers on the market for reasons other than the owner's death (or an exception) may be bad because why else would people sell a good car => speaker.
Was that not the analogy / logic path you were trying to convey? If not, please explain.
Separately, if anyone purchased a typical Honda or Wilson speakers as an investment, they're fools. We know the saying about fools and their money. However, I'm not sure how that is relevant.
Wilson Audio is known in the audiophile community as offering some of the most expensive speakers around.[2] Prior to manufacturing loudspeakers, David Wilson was a staff writer at The Absolute Sound magazine.[3] When Wilson Audio first began offering its products in the early 1980s, the highest priced small "monitor" speaker on the US market was $1,600 per pair; Wilson's small WATT speaker was introduced at $4,400 per pair.[4]
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Aston Martin saved a few pounds per car by using plastic brake pedals made in China.
They broke, had to be replaced.
So, we can say that they value your life at a few UK pounds.
Would you buy a car like that?
If you think Wilson are an investment, rather than speakers, your point of view is different from mine.
If they are good in quality of playback...that is my criterion for evaluating a speaker.
As noted in this thread, JBL and Wharfedale are also well regarded, and their shape is more conventional.
So, your choice of shape really, all other things being equal, and cost no object.
As an aside, I can buy a three bedroom apartment in a nice part of my city for $100,000.
That has appreciated from $60,000 in five years, much better rate of return on investment, and easier to sell.
They broke, had to be replaced.
So, we can say that they value your life at a few UK pounds.
Would you buy a car like that?
If you think Wilson are an investment, rather than speakers, your point of view is different from mine.
If they are good in quality of playback...that is my criterion for evaluating a speaker.
As noted in this thread, JBL and Wharfedale are also well regarded, and their shape is more conventional.
So, your choice of shape really, all other things being equal, and cost no object.
As an aside, I can buy a three bedroom apartment in a nice part of my city for $100,000.
That has appreciated from $60,000 in five years, much better rate of return on investment, and easier to sell.
No, we can't say that; nor should you.
Yes. I think the DB9 Volante was a pretty slick car.
My apologies to all.
Aston Martin brake pedal incident was embarrassing, this can happen when too much pressure is exerted on purchase costs.
If you get good money, at least you should give a good product.
That principle has been lost in many cases, not just this one.
Aston Martin brake pedal incident was embarrassing, this can happen when too much pressure is exerted on purchase costs.
If you get good money, at least you should give a good product.
That principle has been lost in many cases, not just this one.
Depends on which Wilson.
The original Wilson under David's design were/are pure Veblen goods. He took bad design, but used the power of a high price tag, heavy marketing, wining and dining reviewers, strict dealer control and shiny automotive paint jobs to create a brand mystique that drove sales for decades. It was that way from the beginning when he took two pairs of Braun Output Compacts, a pair of trimmed RTR ESR-15 electrostatic add-on tweeters, four KEF B139s in a box and a pair of rather poorly designed bass towers built around 18" Magnet drivers...and introduced it at a price higher than the next most expensive speaker available at the time, the massive and legendary Infinity Reference Standard. The industry representatives there treated it as a joke, but did their best to be polite and by not shouting down that nonsense early on the marketing machine Wilson was good at steamrolling over good sense and all reason. Everything was hidden behind heavy marketing misdirection and ridiculous claims. Using basic linen phenolic aka micarta? Well, that's super, uber duper special proprietary "'M' Material". Paper pressed phenolic? Well, that's space age, exotic "'X' Material". Drivers that anyone could buy from Scan-Speak became special OEM unobtanium...because they had the Wilson name printed on them. The specs were exaggerated beyond all possible belief with bass extensions physically impossible, but credited to an impossibly generous "in room response" if you could dig deep enough through the vague expoundments of the brochures to find that tiniest of fine print.
The speakers themselves made from these parts, despite the good qualit fit and finish, were legitimately awful with severe phasing issues (so bad in the WATT-Puppy 7s I had the misfortune of hearing that the sweet spot was narrower than my head and the slightest movement in the Wilson designed listening room caused the midrange to collapse to one channel or the other), response curves that make the Himalayas look like Iowa and treble hot enough to etch glass...or make a narcissistic 70+ year old with deep pockets actually hear something above 10kHz again for the first time in decades because they refused to admit to the need for hearing aids. Oh, they also either looked like bizarre TV stands or trash cans you'd find in a park, but at least they had the option to come in Ferrari colors. They were rightfully mocked by those who understood good sound and good speaker design and inexplicably beloved by those who equated their self worth with how much they could pay for something.
Then something changed. David got old and his hearing went even more than it was. His son, Daryl, stepped up and started doing his own designs. The thing of it? Daryl's designs actually sounded good. Oh, they were still way overpriced as per the brand, but they weren't just listenable, they were legitimately good. Not at their price point, of course, but something I could live with and would even consider if I didn't mind paying too much for a set of speakers that, well, still looked like trash cans. Whereas David's designs deserved being the joke that they are in the industry and among those who don't get their opinions from full page ads and payola class reviews, Daryl's can and do hold their own and are changing that reputation of the brand from 'overpriced laughing stock for those with no judgement/questionable hearing' to 'overpriced, but legitimately good speakers'.
Give me a pair of David's speakers and I'd just sell them to buy something actually worth having. Do the same with a set of Daryl's and I'd probably keep them to listen to.
The original Wilson under David's design were/are pure Veblen goods. He took bad design, but used the power of a high price tag, heavy marketing, wining and dining reviewers, strict dealer control and shiny automotive paint jobs to create a brand mystique that drove sales for decades. It was that way from the beginning when he took two pairs of Braun Output Compacts, a pair of trimmed RTR ESR-15 electrostatic add-on tweeters, four KEF B139s in a box and a pair of rather poorly designed bass towers built around 18" Magnet drivers...and introduced it at a price higher than the next most expensive speaker available at the time, the massive and legendary Infinity Reference Standard. The industry representatives there treated it as a joke, but did their best to be polite and by not shouting down that nonsense early on the marketing machine Wilson was good at steamrolling over good sense and all reason. Everything was hidden behind heavy marketing misdirection and ridiculous claims. Using basic linen phenolic aka micarta? Well, that's super, uber duper special proprietary "'M' Material". Paper pressed phenolic? Well, that's space age, exotic "'X' Material". Drivers that anyone could buy from Scan-Speak became special OEM unobtanium...because they had the Wilson name printed on them. The specs were exaggerated beyond all possible belief with bass extensions physically impossible, but credited to an impossibly generous "in room response" if you could dig deep enough through the vague expoundments of the brochures to find that tiniest of fine print.
The speakers themselves made from these parts, despite the good qualit fit and finish, were legitimately awful with severe phasing issues (so bad in the WATT-Puppy 7s I had the misfortune of hearing that the sweet spot was narrower than my head and the slightest movement in the Wilson designed listening room caused the midrange to collapse to one channel or the other), response curves that make the Himalayas look like Iowa and treble hot enough to etch glass...or make a narcissistic 70+ year old with deep pockets actually hear something above 10kHz again for the first time in decades because they refused to admit to the need for hearing aids. Oh, they also either looked like bizarre TV stands or trash cans you'd find in a park, but at least they had the option to come in Ferrari colors. They were rightfully mocked by those who understood good sound and good speaker design and inexplicably beloved by those who equated their self worth with how much they could pay for something.
Then something changed. David got old and his hearing went even more than it was. His son, Daryl, stepped up and started doing his own designs. The thing of it? Daryl's designs actually sounded good. Oh, they were still way overpriced as per the brand, but they weren't just listenable, they were legitimately good. Not at their price point, of course, but something I could live with and would even consider if I didn't mind paying too much for a set of speakers that, well, still looked like trash cans. Whereas David's designs deserved being the joke that they are in the industry and among those who don't get their opinions from full page ads and payola class reviews, Daryl's can and do hold their own and are changing that reputation of the brand from 'overpriced laughing stock for those with no judgement/questionable hearing' to 'overpriced, but legitimately good speakers'.
Give me a pair of David's speakers and I'd just sell them to buy something actually worth having. Do the same with a set of Daryl's and I'd probably keep them to listen to.
No need for apologies, IMO. It's just a discussion. You shared an impassioned opinion. No harm, no foul.
I'd also have you consider (and perhaps research) that the heart of the incident was that their supplier used counterfeit plastics that were clearly not to Aston Martin's specifications. They (Aston Martin) were cheated. Now, I do not care to get into yet another internet discussion re: 'Chinese suppliers'. However, I think if we remove the country of origin from the discussion... it likely would be a non-issue / non-topic. You seemed to want to imply that by simply choosing China as a country within which to manufacture / sub-contract, Aston Martin did not value the life of their customers greatly, because everyone knows that you can't find a good brake pedal manufacturer in China. I found that to be largely discriminatory and moreover faulty logic. From another thread, if I recall correctly, you had another issue with Aston Martin and cited a work of fiction as your source. So...
Defining 'good' in a subjective field is always a crap-shoot.
Too true. However, it's certainly not worth cherry picking through, IMO, either.
Always fun.
Cheers!
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My analogy was that just because you pay big bucks for something doesn't guarantee satisfaction with the purchase.
Some B&W speakers are expensive, but you don't see them for sale as often as Wilson Audio speakers. My first home cost well under $100k, and the last speakers I could have afforded at that time was a $100k pair of speakers. I also don't buy any stereo gear as an investment. And I don't sell the gear that I really like.
I owned a Alfa Romeo Spider for about a dozen years. It wasn't a good car because it required a lot more maintenance and expense than any other car I had to that point- but it sure was a fun car to drive. My first pair of speakers were some Sansui speakers that were the best I could afford when I was in the USMC in Okinawa. The entire stereo system cost me $1800, more than half my yearly salary at the time. Sold them as soon as I got home and bought a pair of Polk RTA-12s that I still have. (Of course they've got new speaker drivers).
The Alfa Romeo was sold about 10 years ago, the Polk's still sit in a room in my house. It's not just sentimental value to hold onto part of my youth- I like the way the speakers sound and I still listen to music through them. My wife and son will probably sell them for $20 when I die.
Some B&W speakers are expensive, but you don't see them for sale as often as Wilson Audio speakers. My first home cost well under $100k, and the last speakers I could have afforded at that time was a $100k pair of speakers. I also don't buy any stereo gear as an investment. And I don't sell the gear that I really like.
I owned a Alfa Romeo Spider for about a dozen years. It wasn't a good car because it required a lot more maintenance and expense than any other car I had to that point- but it sure was a fun car to drive. My first pair of speakers were some Sansui speakers that were the best I could afford when I was in the USMC in Okinawa. The entire stereo system cost me $1800, more than half my yearly salary at the time. Sold them as soon as I got home and bought a pair of Polk RTA-12s that I still have. (Of course they've got new speaker drivers).
The Alfa Romeo was sold about 10 years ago, the Polk's still sit in a room in my house. It's not just sentimental value to hold onto part of my youth- I like the way the speakers sound and I still listen to music through them. My wife and son will probably sell them for $20 when I die.
I agree wholeheartedly with the simple statement quoted above.
I completely misunderstood your whole analogy with used cars and deceased previous owners ...
Thanks for explaining and keeping it simple. I was dropped as a child. <j/k>
The brake pedal was made in China, by a sub contractor, to the requirement of the main supplier, who gave out the job at a very low price, forcing the molder to use low quality recycled (weaker) material, which will pass the chemical tests but not the mechanical ones.
Recycled PA-66 sells here for about half the $3 a kilo I pay for material fresh from the factory.
The brake pedal would be at most 2 kilos, so the supplier saved $3, and the benefit may have reached the company.
For some reason, the pedals were not tested for strength before being shipped, and ended up in the cars, the company had to recall the cars, IIRC.
Foolish as well, glass filled PA-66 is 1.4 gm /cc, and Magnesium light alloy is about 1.75 to 1.87 gm / cc, so the weight saving on a pedal would be of the order of 100 grams!
The idea of a light pedal may have been due to the need to save weight.
The pedal is critical, should be fail safe.
And the kicker is the materials cost about the same, and a steel pivot bush, inserted in a Magnesium light alloy pedal would be very strong.
That is the entire story...I mold plastics, am an engineer, and I do not see the need to cut costs to a level so as to put people in danger.
That applies to others as well, we see so many made to price items in daily use.
Recycled PA-66 sells here for about half the $3 a kilo I pay for material fresh from the factory.
The brake pedal would be at most 2 kilos, so the supplier saved $3, and the benefit may have reached the company.
For some reason, the pedals were not tested for strength before being shipped, and ended up in the cars, the company had to recall the cars, IIRC.
Foolish as well, glass filled PA-66 is 1.4 gm /cc, and Magnesium light alloy is about 1.75 to 1.87 gm / cc, so the weight saving on a pedal would be of the order of 100 grams!
The idea of a light pedal may have been due to the need to save weight.
The pedal is critical, should be fail safe.
And the kicker is the materials cost about the same, and a steel pivot bush, inserted in a Magnesium light alloy pedal would be very strong.
That is the entire story...I mold plastics, am an engineer, and I do not see the need to cut costs to a level so as to put people in danger.
That applies to others as well, we see so many made to price items in daily use.
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As for the Wilson speakers, as an analogy, some people used fancy Nikon F series cameras, and some used the much less intrusive Leica...and some put Soviet lenses on their Leica cameras.
There were Soviet lenses, very cheap, actually improved versions of the original Leica lenses.
And 'Fed' cameras...look them up, as well as the Yashica Electro 35 series.
They all took very good pictures.
So, you want to enjoy the music, or you want to admire the aesthetics?
That is everybody's choice, should not impose on them.
There were Soviet lenses, very cheap, actually improved versions of the original Leica lenses.
And 'Fed' cameras...look them up, as well as the Yashica Electro 35 series.
They all took very good pictures.
So, you want to enjoy the music, or you want to admire the aesthetics?
That is everybody's choice, should not impose on them.
China makes A class products for North America and Western Europe.
B quality goes to places which are less prosperous, and C is for backward / poor countries.
They are quite straight forward in their dealings, you get what you pay for, sometimes they do not say a slightly higher price is going to get much higher quality.
So no, I am wondering why such a small run product was made so far away, it could have been sourced from a closer place.
B quality goes to places which are less prosperous, and C is for backward / poor countries.
They are quite straight forward in their dealings, you get what you pay for, sometimes they do not say a slightly higher price is going to get much higher quality.
So no, I am wondering why such a small run product was made so far away, it could have been sourced from a closer place.
These brands are not comparable, their speakers not even close price-wise, and there is such a mix of driver and enclosure technologies involved that a forum thread can’t give this questIon justice. I recommend that the op visit some audio shows to get a real impression.
Beyond that, although Wilson is not my poison, I am glad that there are still flagship brands left given the current state of the industry, who in turn provide for the headline acts for audio shows with their £1m rooms that can attract enough visitors.
So which models were designed by Daryl?
ART - GOLD - PLATINUM - DIAMONDS - CARS
are some of the things that super-wealthy people invest in.
It seems that some of this discussion is about whether Wilson A. speakers also fit that bill.
I would probably suggest - not.
are some of the things that super-wealthy people invest in.
It seems that some of this discussion is about whether Wilson A. speakers also fit that bill.
I would probably suggest - not.
I am not sure that holds true for wilson audio speakers, not for david designed models any way, david seems to favour a midrange peak around 1-2khz similar to yamaha ns10 while daryl seems to favour a more balanced midrange, but both liked a top treble that falls off