🙂
Thank you @borchee. As former sound engineer i'm aware of most gear Studer did for pro field not so much about consumer side.
No need to tell about the previous discussion: i was part of it. 😉
I don't care about it too and came to conclusion that once you are above a treshold (quality wise) the improvements are tiny to say the least ( when not subliminal). And very subjective.
I crossed my own treshold when using a direct drive linear traker with it's dedicated MC ( and not a fancy Koetsu).
We are in 2023 yes. Non physical rules the outside world. As well as packages
Not for me: the records i like the most i buy them once and i own them. I can play them offline, if an hdd crash, even if their is a power grid outage ( i have a generator to power my house just in case...).
Call me paranoid that's ok. 🙂
No big data collected about my habits and preferences, no way i pay for label's catalog already paid ten times ( as i was part of the industry i don't want to keep bringing money to parasite living on the back of artists).
And what about longevity?
I mean if there is a solar storm striking earth and data centers around the world just lost infos loaded into cloud... i know it's very unlikely but 4 years ago who had bet the world would be on hold for such a long time because of a virus?
I was lucky to had access to original multitracks of famous 70's and 80's bands in one of the studio i worked in. Loading them on the multitrack and pulling the faders at 0db on the desk brought the musicians back into the studio 30 years later.
Some years ago i had to try to backup digital sessions done 5 years before and was never able to get the same original mix as the original track because of software updates, version and os...
Digital is great no question about it. But it is not something i would use as archive. Or if stored onto something that could last more than ten years and i have control over storage.
Definitely i'm paranoid! 🙂
Thank you @borchee. As former sound engineer i'm aware of most gear Studer did for pro field not so much about consumer side.
No need to tell about the previous discussion: i was part of it. 😉
I don't care about it too and came to conclusion that once you are above a treshold (quality wise) the improvements are tiny to say the least ( when not subliminal). And very subjective.
I crossed my own treshold when using a direct drive linear traker with it's dedicated MC ( and not a fancy Koetsu).
We are in 2023 yes. Non physical rules the outside world. As well as packages
Not for me: the records i like the most i buy them once and i own them. I can play them offline, if an hdd crash, even if their is a power grid outage ( i have a generator to power my house just in case...).
Call me paranoid that's ok. 🙂
No big data collected about my habits and preferences, no way i pay for label's catalog already paid ten times ( as i was part of the industry i don't want to keep bringing money to parasite living on the back of artists).
And what about longevity?
I mean if there is a solar storm striking earth and data centers around the world just lost infos loaded into cloud... i know it's very unlikely but 4 years ago who had bet the world would be on hold for such a long time because of a virus?
I was lucky to had access to original multitracks of famous 70's and 80's bands in one of the studio i worked in. Loading them on the multitrack and pulling the faders at 0db on the desk brought the musicians back into the studio 30 years later.
Some years ago i had to try to backup digital sessions done 5 years before and was never able to get the same original mix as the original track because of software updates, version and os...
Digital is great no question about it. But it is not something i would use as archive. Or if stored onto something that could last more than ten years and i have control over storage.
Definitely i'm paranoid! 🙂
The last new vinyl LP I bought, which was superbly pressed, was transparent. Absolutely click free. Since it was stolen I can't quote artist producer or engineer. But it was the record company associated with Little Steven's Underground Garage radio show. Steven Van Zandt. Probably Wicked Cool Records. My 45 of Cool Water by Sons of the Pioneers on RCA given me by my Grandfather was also transparent green.
How is the laser turntable going to handle that. Spray paint?
How is the laser turntable going to handle that. Spray paint?
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High-end or Crosley? . Both can be enjoyable.
I think you are saying 'forget about turntables unless you can invest the required $7000 or so to get a good system'. Is that what you are saying?
I have not been in a Hi-Fi showroom in the past 10 years or more, and never at a Hi-Fi show. I have YouTube that's all. When I can see and hear the high end systems maybe I can start choosing.
Here are some reviews if interested. It does not play transparent or 200g records, apparently.
Available used for $ 10,000 or so. The initial version was planned to sell for $2000 which would have been affordable by now. The CD impacted its marketability at the time, with the recession (Wikipedia)
https://www.conradjohnsonowners.com/viewtopic.php?t=1201
Available used for $ 10,000 or so. The initial version was planned to sell for $2000 which would have been affordable by now. The CD impacted its marketability at the time, with the recession (Wikipedia)
https://www.conradjohnsonowners.com/viewtopic.php?t=1201
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Nope, not at all! Agreed, High-end or Crosley doesn't matter as long as one enjoys it.
You're just all over the place...VTF, speed, W&F, wear and tear, prices, sound quality comparisons records/mp3/wav/CD/cassette/Youtube/streamers and what not. You didn't cover dead-wax yet, I believe.
You wrote that you don't want to miss on good music and are interseted in unusual sounds...or something along these lines. The World of music is not just Billboard's or Rolling Stone's 500 greatest anything. So much music, so little time!
If you want recommendations for buying a TT, state what you're looking for in a few simple lines:
- budget so and so much
- new or used and overhauled with waranty
- with or without ADC on board
- with or without preamp on board
- without cartridge or MM, MC...optical cartridge, laser (well, at least with the last two the choice is simple)
- pitch control
- speeds
- manual/automatic
- anything else you might think of you need.
The long winded posts are just confusing.
Keep the stylus and records clean. check/set tracking force according to manufacturer's recommendation and play them bloody things - that's what they are ment for.
If you enjoy music from Youtube, stay with that - looooots of new-to-one music to be discovered...damn rabbit hole.
Well...how do you play shellacs...or transcriptor discs...or Edison cylinders...or Tefifon bands? I surrely wouldn't want a nail anywhere near these records.
Such extreme expense is justified if your objective is to recover the recording and save it to a digital copy. The recovery process need not be done in real time and AI may be able to correct some physical damage. The disk cleaning could be done ahead of the point of playback. But listening directly to vinyl today is not about the recording.
I am glad we agree there. Too bad for the records.
I want a turntable that will not damage my records, to check this audio playback format out, before I proceed further. I will even settle for a turntable that will damage records slightly - but this is all covered in the other thread:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...a-decent-turntable.399727/page-5#post-7367587
Apparently, with a proper turntable and record care, records can be played for over 50 years. I did not know that when I started this inquiry. Come to think of it, records will last longer than the turntables which will run out of parts some time.
These are not contactless, but seem to reduce the forces on the record surface considerably, and are expensive:
I can hear the difference over YouTube, which has to be due to the cartridges, though it may not be an full representation of what is played back. The difference in quality does come through: does everyone else here the difference?
Peter Lederman - RMAF
Optical Cartridge Demonstration
These are not contactless, but seem to reduce the forces on the record surface considerably, and are expensive:
I can hear the difference over YouTube, which has to be due to the cartridges, though it may not be an full representation of what is played back. The difference in quality does come through: does everyone else here the difference?
Peter Lederman - RMAF
Optical Cartridge Demonstration
There is no such thing!...aside from the ELP.
Common sense...you're running the hardest nail, known to man, to scrape information out of a soft carrier. If the diamond gets worn out, you can imagine what happens to vinyl.
You'll damage records just by taking them out the sleeve, putting them back, brushing/cleaning them, laying them on a mat/platter and so on. You just have to do it oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooften enough to make an audible difference.
These are the hardcore facts that nobody can dispute.
The good thing is, they don't matter...well, within reason. You won't play a single record 24/7 for 50 years...or will you? Keeping records/stylus/mat clean is just about all you can do to minimize wear and tare.
If you really must dive into TTs on a budget, go for an entry level Rega, Pro-Ject, Audio Technika without ADC and preamp on board - that will give you "most turntable" for a buck. Nothing wrong to take a Crosley as well...just omit the Cruiser and the likes with ceramic cartridges and no VTF-setting.
Right, so it is time to delve into this. Back in the 1970s I was told to use a felt brush for the records, but never cleaned a needle. What do you recommend for cleaning? The turntable I was allowed to use maybe Pioneer, the rest of the system was, has a light beige brush attached to something and sweeping the record tracks every time it was played. In the 1980s I was introduced to the revolutionary (for me) concept of washing the records with water.
Is this good? What does everyone use?
https://notesonvinyl.com/clean-stylus/
I will need a external preamp?
I use a carbon fiber brush. It attracts and removes loose dirt in the grooves, and discharges the static charge on the vinyl. When you reach for your turntable, I advise to touch a conductive and grounded part of the stand firstly to begin your body’s static discharge.
For washing records, I recommend zero direct contact, and by that I mean an ultrasonic cleaner, or a general nozzel-fed stream of water with a drop of mild detergent.
Buy a pack of static-free sleeves and place cleaned and fully dried vinyl inside them. The paper sleeves can release particles with age as the paper dries and breaks down.
For a first table, check out the Pro-ject’s Debut Carbon tables, or dive into the RPM 9 table if you want to skip the upgrade merry-go-round. I think Pro-ject still installs and aligns the cartridge of your choice on the included tonearm. That’s a great service which not even the higher priced brands seem to offer. Heck, the more you spend the more confusing and laborious it seems to gets, because you have to supply your own cartridge, match it’s compliance with a tonearm, and align it yourself after determining what armboard (the thing the tonearm bearing assembly mounts to) your tonearm requires.
I was looking at the ELP, but the price is troublesome for a non-user serviceable machine with a finite service life. Who is going to fix that if the company ceases manufacturing the parts, the company closes, or is bought out?
I also looked seriously at the DS 002 optical cartridge, but it still uses a stylus with tracking force identical to conventonal types. It’s price is more attainable, but styli have a limited life which is very much determined by tracking force and residual debris.
Compact Disc was developed by Philips for exactly this purpose, contact less playback.
Best you build a proper system, yourself or purchased, and then see how the (downloaded, or copied) sound is like.
You can try your cardboard speakers, if you like.
A good DAC is nice to have, or the output in high resolution from a computer.
You are on a foreign posting, it seems, and may have to move again.
Believe me, some things do not travel well.
That means fragile LPs should not be thrown about by loaders.
And a damaged T/T...eek!
And you should be able to find decent Japanese tables in Sri Lanka, or South India.
Enough for a first expedition , compared to exotic makes.
Cheaper and safer than shipping from Europe, or Japan.
Best you build a proper system, yourself or purchased, and then see how the (downloaded, or copied) sound is like.
You can try your cardboard speakers, if you like.
A good DAC is nice to have, or the output in high resolution from a computer.
You are on a foreign posting, it seems, and may have to move again.
Believe me, some things do not travel well.
That means fragile LPs should not be thrown about by loaders.
And a damaged T/T...eek!
And you should be able to find decent Japanese tables in Sri Lanka, or South India.
Enough for a first expedition , compared to exotic makes.
Cheaper and safer than shipping from Europe, or Japan.
TT doesn't travel well?!
Well my pair of 1200mk2 travelled each week end between 1995 and 2005. Played into bars, clubs, even on car hood in the middle of a forest at 5am in february in northern hemisphere ( cold and wet conditions) powered by a non regulated generator regularly. 😏
They still run without issues ( less regularly as i invested into a derivative which is more hifi oriented and linear traker which i prefer).
Off course they have cases but please don't make general assumptions, all TT are not fragile fancy things.
If you can find there is nice clone of sl1200mk2 now. I've played some Citronics which were awfully close at half the price of second hand Technics units.
Still a bit of money new but they are built like tanks, sound good... don't know about servicability though. If i had to invest into something to start atm i would not hesitate.
I agree with Koulky ultrasonic cleaner is a must for records ( as well as good sleeves). But it cost a bit even if diy. Anyway don't put your fingers on, keep them dust free, clean them with a carbon fiber brush before each play: it'll be alright as is.
I already tell for stylus: Onzow's stylus cleaner or if cheap Moon Gel pads ( pads used to tame resonnance on drum's head): same material as Onzow's but cost 10 time less... Clean with purified water from time to time, keep under sealed box it'll last you a lifetime! I've got zero concern using this on all my stylus including MC ( pricey and not availlable anymore).
If you wan't to go crazy there is ultrasonic stylus cleaning availlable too but it cost a bit ( circa 200euro iirc). Already used it for my Ortofon DJ stylus ( Club mk2) and it works great, but not worth the investissement in my case.
Yes you'll need an RIAA. Why? Because you can diy some marvelous one: member RJM's Emerald is a bargain imho, Salas's ones ( fet or tube) sounds great,... i compared my MC with my RJM's phonoclone to fancy tube unit a ( dentist) friend of mine own ( Audio Research costing the price of my car...), his jaw dropped. Nothing to say more.
For dj'ing i use a nice broadcast mixer with good RIAA ( Freevox DJ4) and for MM and electronic music it kick ***, it's more than ok for R&R and acceptable for classical music and Jazz.
Rjm's simplest RIAA ( i forget the name of it) is close in design so i would expect the same for it and i bet it's more all round style wise ( i'm sure the cartridge is the culprit in my observations).
If you can use a shunt regulated psu to power your circuit and you'll be in heaven for some years to come.
Well my pair of 1200mk2 travelled each week end between 1995 and 2005. Played into bars, clubs, even on car hood in the middle of a forest at 5am in february in northern hemisphere ( cold and wet conditions) powered by a non regulated generator regularly. 😏
They still run without issues ( less regularly as i invested into a derivative which is more hifi oriented and linear traker which i prefer).
Off course they have cases but please don't make general assumptions, all TT are not fragile fancy things.
If you can find there is nice clone of sl1200mk2 now. I've played some Citronics which were awfully close at half the price of second hand Technics units.
Still a bit of money new but they are built like tanks, sound good... don't know about servicability though. If i had to invest into something to start atm i would not hesitate.
I agree with Koulky ultrasonic cleaner is a must for records ( as well as good sleeves). But it cost a bit even if diy. Anyway don't put your fingers on, keep them dust free, clean them with a carbon fiber brush before each play: it'll be alright as is.
I already tell for stylus: Onzow's stylus cleaner or if cheap Moon Gel pads ( pads used to tame resonnance on drum's head): same material as Onzow's but cost 10 time less... Clean with purified water from time to time, keep under sealed box it'll last you a lifetime! I've got zero concern using this on all my stylus including MC ( pricey and not availlable anymore).
If you wan't to go crazy there is ultrasonic stylus cleaning availlable too but it cost a bit ( circa 200euro iirc). Already used it for my Ortofon DJ stylus ( Club mk2) and it works great, but not worth the investissement in my case.
Yes you'll need an RIAA. Why? Because you can diy some marvelous one: member RJM's Emerald is a bargain imho, Salas's ones ( fet or tube) sounds great,... i compared my MC with my RJM's phonoclone to fancy tube unit a ( dentist) friend of mine own ( Audio Research costing the price of my car...), his jaw dropped. Nothing to say more.
For dj'ing i use a nice broadcast mixer with good RIAA ( Freevox DJ4) and for MM and electronic music it kick ***, it's more than ok for R&R and acceptable for classical music and Jazz.
Rjm's simplest RIAA ( i forget the name of it) is close in design so i would expect the same for it and i bet it's more all round style wise ( i'm sure the cartridge is the culprit in my observations).
If you can use a shunt regulated psu to power your circuit and you'll be in heaven for some years to come.
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Model?
And you were handling it, nor being thrown about like a sack of corn by loaders?
Not being sent by lorry and pallet?
There is a difference in local and transcontinental shifting.
Would you buy a table and records today, or would you prefer another setup?
And you were handling it, nor being thrown about like a sack of corn by loaders?
Not being sent by lorry and pallet?
There is a difference in local and transcontinental shifting.
Would you buy a table and records today, or would you prefer another setup?
Naresh read my message please, model is given and yes i would invest in this too again atm ( explained mostly why in a previous post: archive mainly, because of djing too as analog is fun to play ( synching discs with your fingers and hears IS fun) and because i like the sound of my system even compared to my DAW/Rme AES soundcard driving my Dolby Lake lp4d12).
Ok so as their might be cultural gap: i'm a former dj in Freeparty/illegal Rave movement. Transcontinental on a pallet is way smoother than drunk/ under drug influence punk kicking in the TT in a forest at 5am in february. On a pallet you don't risk an ***.ole dumping beer or other alcool mixed with chemicals products on the deck too...
Rough and tuff conditions believe me.
There is a reason why the 1200mk2 were the standard deck for dj culture from 70's to 10's. Found in hip hop, techno, radiostation and...audiophile setup. Probably not the best but a real workhorse with very good sound quality.
Ok so as their might be cultural gap: i'm a former dj in Freeparty/illegal Rave movement. Transcontinental on a pallet is way smoother than drunk/ under drug influence punk kicking in the TT in a forest at 5am in february. On a pallet you don't risk an ***.ole dumping beer or other alcool mixed with chemicals products on the deck too...
Rough and tuff conditions believe me.
There is a reason why the 1200mk2 were the standard deck for dj culture from 70's to 10's. Found in hip hop, techno, radiostation and...audiophile setup. Probably not the best but a real workhorse with very good sound quality.
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I believe you.
Now, will you stick to digital media, or purchase an expensive pressing made from digital file today.
Along with table, you will spend on record and stylus cleaner, and other things as well.
For a new investment?
Now, will you stick to digital media, or purchase an expensive pressing made from digital file today.
Along with table, you will spend on record and stylus cleaner, and other things as well.
For a new investment?
From your first question: it depends.
I've no interest in classic 70's rock reissue so i would not invest in it for this. But i've already a collection of some of this classic (i started buying vinyl regularly in the 90's at thrift store).
Some recent release of new music produced by digital gear ( synth, daw, plugins,...) on vinyl i don't hesitate to buy though if it's worth it artisticaly speaking.
Yes analog cost. It's the same with my musical instruments: i have to buy strings for my bass, ongoing maintenance on my analog synth,... it's a real thing. As well as the physical feelings with this instruments... wrt plug ins on my computer!
For me it is the same with TT. There is some kind of ritual involved: find the lp in the collection, cleaning the cart and disc, power the analog chain... boring to some, not for me! And i dislike playlist: if an artist released an album he spent time working on it, organised songs, made a choice about it... isolating parts of it seems weird to me ( most of the time). Maybe helping artists giving birth to their vision influenced my view on it idk? Anyway i would not look at a paint excluding parts of it or skip passages in a film...
Even my kids ( 3 and 8) like the ritual and prefer it to fully digital... my 3 years old son can stay looking at label runing in circle and dancing/ singing 'we are the robots' with a big smile on his face... ( i'm guilty contaminating them with Kraftwerk!).
It all depends on what you are after. I like thd idea to listen to some LP as when they were released too... and i'm not a hipster, don't care about 'lifestyle' or other occidental BS trends... no melancholy/ nostalgia/ snob attitudd involved in my case. I just like it. As i like tape too ( Cassette as well as reel to reel).
There is good things in oldschool as well as in new one. I like having all and choice between them. It's my own vision of luxury in a way...
I've no interest in classic 70's rock reissue so i would not invest in it for this. But i've already a collection of some of this classic (i started buying vinyl regularly in the 90's at thrift store).
Some recent release of new music produced by digital gear ( synth, daw, plugins,...) on vinyl i don't hesitate to buy though if it's worth it artisticaly speaking.
Yes analog cost. It's the same with my musical instruments: i have to buy strings for my bass, ongoing maintenance on my analog synth,... it's a real thing. As well as the physical feelings with this instruments... wrt plug ins on my computer!
For me it is the same with TT. There is some kind of ritual involved: find the lp in the collection, cleaning the cart and disc, power the analog chain... boring to some, not for me! And i dislike playlist: if an artist released an album he spent time working on it, organised songs, made a choice about it... isolating parts of it seems weird to me ( most of the time). Maybe helping artists giving birth to their vision influenced my view on it idk? Anyway i would not look at a paint excluding parts of it or skip passages in a film...
Even my kids ( 3 and 8) like the ritual and prefer it to fully digital... my 3 years old son can stay looking at label runing in circle and dancing/ singing 'we are the robots' with a big smile on his face... ( i'm guilty contaminating them with Kraftwerk!).
It all depends on what you are after. I like thd idea to listen to some LP as when they were released too... and i'm not a hipster, don't care about 'lifestyle' or other occidental BS trends... no melancholy/ nostalgia/ snob attitudd involved in my case. I just like it. As i like tape too ( Cassette as well as reel to reel).
There is good things in oldschool as well as in new one. I like having all and choice between them. It's my own vision of luxury in a way...
I will discuss the system next, but on the other thread. My present system sounds great, so good that I am now looking for music to play on it.
You mentioned turntables: how do you package them? Is the original box good to keep?
Also: transporting the vinyl itself! I thought a large plastic rigid case would be the best thing, I may get someone to bring them over here on the airline flight, but I think I brought mine back just packing it in a suitcase. Stiff cardboard packing (corrugated cardboard is good?)
https://www.falconerremovals.co.uk/industry-news/how-to-pack-a-record-player-for-moving/
When the problem was dust on the record, I held it under a faucet at modest flow. If you spin it under the faucet you can keep the water from damaging the label. If the record was a premium brand, I then rinsed with deionized water. Cheapos with grit in the vinyl, I just propped up against the wall & let dry. Used records that had been coated with mold, I used dish detergent without the lye in the water. Palmolive formula now called essential clean.
My Shure M97 Era IV cartridge had its own bruxh, which also damped out warp bounce somewhat. I cleaned accumulated dust off it and the stylus with my finger.
BTW my BIC960 changer, the cartridge was mis-aligned as delivered. I used washers under the cart to get the angle right.