@tiefbassuebertr
Have you considered inserting an LC filter between the NAP250 regulators and the amp boards? It's a bigger job, of course.
Have you considered inserting an LC filter between the NAP250 regulators and the amp boards? It's a bigger job, of course.
That is a good question. Always to observe is, that large capacitors deliver the best sonic results (in terms of both weight and volume).
The reason therefore in detail is unknown for me.
According ESR a large number of inexpensive capacitors in parallel operation provides the lowest values (as realized with the Einstein model "The Amp").
In real live two single elcaps with screw terminal and less capacitance at whole provide better results in sound quality despite the fact, that ESR value is higher.
It is possible that the ESR will change on cheap elcap stuff when occur very high currents if pulses are present in the music signal - so I guess.
Also individual response character of high power regulators don't provide a benefit in opposite of big capacitor (at least the ones I know).
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If execution is as on the attached picture, it hardly can compete with a single very good quality capacitor.
Look how large is area with capacitors. They have long PCB tracks, even not double-sided PCB, with PCB track resistance and inductance between individual capacitors. Impedance between output connectors and each individual capacitor can’t be equal. Current will flow through lowest impedance path, overloading closest capacitors and pulling less from those further down the tracks.
How transient response, with such complex ESR & ESL network, looks like? I don’t expect it will be clean step as is with a single capacitor.
Question is how we define benefit? Even measurements will not show victory of regulated PS over unregulated one for every regulator type. There are some very bad regulated PS designs.
If measurements are good, then only our ears can decide. I’m not in the ‘golden ear’ club but my ears confirm regulated PS to be much better overall.
Attached is an example of regulated PS rail modulation by amplifier AC load. With CRC and same amplifier load, rails harmonics are in 10 mV range. I’m sure I don’t hear that difference, but some of you using single ended designs might.
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One advantage with small capacitors is that the current paths are smaller and herefore more defined. The current is more defined, the signal therefore cleaner. If you put these small things on ONE circuit, it would result in a supercapacitor. However, the connections also add up in cross-section.
With large electrolytic capacitors, with screw terminals, mostly thick aluminum bushings, then another steel screw with steel nut, the currents are very undefined, the sound rather flat, gray, with the steel fasteners rather metal scrap. But this suits many push-pull amplifiers and wooden speakers, counters their sound. Therefore, the supposedly better sound of the few big ones may stem. It is a question of tuning. I recommend plastic washers and plastic screws, and the aluminum bolt cut down to the condenser cover.
If current were taken into account in the construction of capacitors, then we could use any size and hardly fear sonic changes - assuming the same materials.
With large electrolytic capacitors, with screw terminals, mostly thick aluminum bushings, then another steel screw with steel nut, the currents are very undefined, the sound rather flat, gray, with the steel fasteners rather metal scrap. But this suits many push-pull amplifiers and wooden speakers, counters their sound. Therefore, the supposedly better sound of the few big ones may stem. It is a question of tuning. I recommend plastic washers and plastic screws, and the aluminum bolt cut down to the condenser cover.
If current were taken into account in the construction of capacitors, then we could use any size and hardly fear sonic changes - assuming the same materials.
Unless we define the application and the range of options, we can't really make a priority list, if that's what you are querying. To be honest, I don't really know what I most want from capacitors used for smoothing raw, rectified AC in linear audio amplifier power supplies. Properties like low ESR, high ripple current rating and long life all have a high priority but most folk here, seem to be attracted to respected brands before considering whether the grade, service lifetime, parallel inductance and so on will all affect their perceived audio to some degree.
I can say (A), that in my original NAP140, I seemed to get the most desirable (not necessarily technically best) performance from either original brand BHC caps or Kendiel (KO5 type as I recall) but I haven't spent much time listening to recent Naim products which feature the Kemet brand, whether they are essentially the same products as BHC's in a new sleeve or not. Hi-Fi Collective (UK seller) claim that Kemet now supply at least some popular BHC electrolytics under their own Kemet brand. Mundorff electrolytics may sound wonderful too but out of my price league. I do wonder though, just how much better or consistent any hand-made cap. could be. I'm certain that their attempt to appeal via traditional craft values is just for emptying the wallets of audiophiles and enthusiasts though.
(B), It really does matter what the specification, hours in use and age of the power supply caps is. The electrolyte for 105° ratings is amazingly stable, much better even than the type likely used in original 1970s BHC caps but it will probably be similar if not the same stuff as used now by every other respectable manufacturer. The foil/paper layers are likely the only area of significant difference that could well impact on size, reactance and ESR etc.
(C) If the general specs are similar for competing products, there's likely only size and ESR to compare. Ripple current rating being a close relative to ESR, you could consider it to have the same significance. However, just looking at numbers and concluding that more of a good quality is best, ain't necessarily so, nor does it mean every other good quality will follow.
(D)The total Mass of the cap is certainly a factor if the technology of each electrolytic type were the same but if some are using higher current density per unit foil area, the game is changed.
My personal preference is always for a stable product and source. I don't like fads and fancies that require you to research new products every time you want to buy something, only to find it's no longer available, replaced by a different, smaller product, an unspecified generic or nothing even similar. I'm prepared to take a hit to almost anything but sound quality in amplifiers - since that's what we pay for in high-end products.
Finally, the most important functional qualities after the basics like total capacitance, voltage and temperature ratings are (I think):
ESR/ripple current ratings
ESL frequency limitations
There is apparently some concern for other frequency dependent capacitor losses but I haven't seen the data to make any priority list.
Besides some document work:
Underside of the Einstein catastrophe amplifier. It also often had stability problems. I don't know how often I had on the table;-)
By the way: the phono amplifier of this "integrated amplifier", at that time 2.000 Euro, is sold today separately in a small case with external mini power supply and buffer, called "turntables choice", for 3.500 Euro;-) Back then at least a fat power supply (power-amp) still hung in front of it;-) By the way, the phono amplifier is a half wave symmetrical push-pull amplifier. I advise against it for sound reasons, even if it was celebrated in the Hifi magazines as "state of the art"-)
Underside of the Einstein catastrophe amplifier. It also often had stability problems. I don't know how often I had on the table;-)
By the way: the phono amplifier of this "integrated amplifier", at that time 2.000 Euro, is sold today separately in a small case with external mini power supply and buffer, called "turntables choice", for 3.500 Euro;-) Back then at least a fat power supply (power-amp) still hung in front of it;-) By the way, the phono amplifier is a half wave symmetrical push-pull amplifier. I advise against it for sound reasons, even if it was celebrated in the Hifi magazines as "state of the art"-)
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![DSCN0281[1].JPG](/community/data/attachments/1077/1077592-44c05f8a7c25b53cd86932852e1455a0.jpg?hash=RMBfinwltT)
Now likely a post will follow celebrating the sonical qualities of the Einstein Catastrophe.
Odd + classic + hifi magazines = success
Odd + classic + hifi magazines = success
Ian, are you an economist, lol? That is a very long, equivocating response and you didn't answer the question.
If you were a designer, what is the most important thing you would expect of a capacitor?
If you were a designer, what is the most important thing you would expect of a capacitor?
;-)
The process "current" can be traced, for example, by taking photographs of "lightning";-)
This process "current" can be controlled and defined by the shape of the conductor.
The process "current" can be traced, for example, by taking photographs of "lightning";-)
This process "current" can be controlled and defined by the shape of the conductor.
I thought Einstein catastrophe was a comment on his hair style. Now I get it: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/best-electrolytic-capacitors.151392/post-3125102
Sorry, my excuse is that it was late and I was juggling threads but I thought I had replied to the question in the final paragraph. Yes, I only picked out a couple of qualities from experience, that I believe are most important or perhaps just associated with good sound quality but rather than fumble through analysing their effects, I simply said at the beginning; "I don't honestly know which is the most important...."
If your question was more along the lines of "what do you think a capacitor is supposed to do in an amplifier?" we still need to qualify its specific purpose before someone can reply and the qualification holds the answer anyway.
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This is a fishing lesson.
In my experience, solving problems in audio, like why a heavier capacitor should result in better sound, requires a sort of regression in thinking.
Suppose you have in your hand a magical capacitor that can talk (alternatively, if you are in Canada imagine you've eaten too many brownies). You ask it "What is your most important characteristic?". And suppose it has the intellect of a young child but it understands that "most" means just one. And suppose it understands a word is required rather than a white paper.
What would its reply be?
In my experience, solving problems in audio, like why a heavier capacitor should result in better sound, requires a sort of regression in thinking.
Suppose you have in your hand a magical capacitor that can talk (alternatively, if you are in Canada imagine you've eaten too many brownies). You ask it "What is your most important characteristic?". And suppose it has the intellect of a young child but it understands that "most" means just one. And suppose it understands a word is required rather than a white paper.
What would its reply be?
It looks like I'm picking on Ian. Sorry!
Open question to all.
Related:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/leader...a-solution-stop-staring-at-the-problem/245416
"Test everything you believe to be true about your problem and you'll probably find that you are operating on at least one false premise. When you change the "if" the "then" will change as well."
Open question to all.
Related:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/leader...a-solution-stop-staring-at-the-problem/245416
"Test everything you believe to be true about your problem and you'll probably find that you are operating on at least one false premise. When you change the "if" the "then" will change as well."
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Although capacitance is essence of what capacitor is, single most important property of any PS capacitor is impedance across the whole audio band. It should be very low. Though, one property is not enough to determine if capacitor is best fit for an intended duty.