OK, let's start a new line of questioning.
What are the free programs I can get to measure speakers and simulate boxes and xovers?
Professional flat microphones I already have, from AKG and Sennheiser, and all the audio gear to go into the laptop.
What are the free programs I can get to measure speakers and simulate boxes and xovers?
Professional flat microphones I already have, from AKG and Sennheiser, and all the audio gear to go into the laptop.
Virtuix Cad
likewise also Boxsim
Boxsim comes with FRD files already from Visaton.
So the measurements already done.
Adding other drivers little tricky.
So Virtuix Cad does everything.
Box Sim / Baffle Diffraction/ Crossover
and likely most used on this site.
There should be countless demos on Youtube
to help the learning curve
Very Quick way to start is using Dayton FRD files
since they provide them for all the drivers.
You would take their 0 degree measurements and
simulate them on a specific sized baffle.
In Virtuix Cad Diffraction tool and then actually see
how a baffle and full space works.
Or with a microphone also be able to use virtuix cad
to measure you drivers and design crossovers.
likewise also Boxsim
Boxsim comes with FRD files already from Visaton.
So the measurements already done.
Adding other drivers little tricky.
So Virtuix Cad does everything.
Box Sim / Baffle Diffraction/ Crossover
and likely most used on this site.
There should be countless demos on Youtube
to help the learning curve
Very Quick way to start is using Dayton FRD files
since they provide them for all the drivers.
You would take their 0 degree measurements and
simulate them on a specific sized baffle.
In Virtuix Cad Diffraction tool and then actually see
how a baffle and full space works.
Or with a microphone also be able to use virtuix cad
to measure you drivers and design crossovers.
Not willing to pop your balloon, Digikey has no warehouse in Brazil. They ship it all, after purchase, directly from the USA. Same with Mouser.
With two bad things: they ship only by courier (very expensive for 8" speakers) and you pay local taxes for the speaker and shipping.
When companies used sea shipping you could use USPS and pay ridiculous shipping. Now you don't. So you end up paying 2.5 times the original price. Believe me: I did simulate a purchase.
Tweeters are fine, and I use another shipping arrangement which does use USPS (cheaper than courier), and it's how the SB21s are on the way here.
I see, that is unfortunate.
Tried at least. Seems logical your more familiar with your region
Hopefully some members here might have some insight.
And actually I did notice later after posting looking at the Digikey site
the prices for your region seemed twice as high
Tried at least. Seems logical your more familiar with your region
Hopefully some members here might have some insight.
And actually I did notice later after posting looking at the Digikey site
the prices for your region seemed twice as high
Well, let me first do my measurements and then we discuss what is gonna work.
The living proof that an 8" midbass works fine with a 1" dome speaker is on my living room. Of course I mean using THIS 8" driver.
Pity I don't have here the original manufacturers curves for the 8" driver here, and it would be very difficult to get them for several months.
But I tell you one thing: the first speakers I had, made and sold by my friend, was a 3-way large box (1" dome, 4.25" mid and 10" woofer). They sounded great, but for private reasons I had to sell them.
To replace them I bought the smaller box. You know how my friend demoed them: first he played the 3-way, then he played the two way. You could then listen to the difference.
I have been a professional film sound recordist all my life, so I have listened to pro speakers in many studios. My ear is trained, and the 2-way sounded more coherent than the 3-way. They had a bit less bass, as they should, but the widest FR range of the 8" probably made it sound "better". Of course that "better" is a subjective argument, but I never regretted the change.
My friend just made few models, but this was his site
https://glg-acoustics.com.ar/
The living proof that an 8" midbass works fine with a 1" dome speaker is on my living room. Of course I mean using THIS 8" driver.
Pity I don't have here the original manufacturers curves for the 8" driver here, and it would be very difficult to get them for several months.
But I tell you one thing: the first speakers I had, made and sold by my friend, was a 3-way large box (1" dome, 4.25" mid and 10" woofer). They sounded great, but for private reasons I had to sell them.
To replace them I bought the smaller box. You know how my friend demoed them: first he played the 3-way, then he played the two way. You could then listen to the difference.
I have been a professional film sound recordist all my life, so I have listened to pro speakers in many studios. My ear is trained, and the 2-way sounded more coherent than the 3-way. They had a bit less bass, as they should, but the widest FR range of the 8" probably made it sound "better". Of course that "better" is a subjective argument, but I never regretted the change.
My friend just made few models, but this was his site
https://glg-acoustics.com.ar/
This my first real try at looking for a replacement for my friend's 8" speaker.
I have a cousin who lives in California, and two times we evaluated selling my friend's speakers in the USA. But in the end it all depended on my friend, one single person, which made such a business impossible.
Lately we had been playing with the idea of adding two 12" NHTs drivers I have to the two way as it is, instead of picking a 6.5" driver, which would allow a higher cross to the tweeter and cover more octaves with one single driver.
Adding the NHT on the side would mean a larger box. There's one limitation (which also eliminates the Stella Light from my options): height.
The speaker can't be higher than my version of the 2-way: 21 inches.
My friend suggested doing the frontal baffle less tall: 15.5" x 10". That was the model you can see on his site. What would grow is the back length, to accommodate the NHTs. The large woofers would be on the inside, or they would reflect on the walls.
I can't go higher in the box dimension, because it would interfere with my video projector's screen.
I have a cousin who lives in California, and two times we evaluated selling my friend's speakers in the USA. But in the end it all depended on my friend, one single person, which made such a business impossible.
Lately we had been playing with the idea of adding two 12" NHTs drivers I have to the two way as it is, instead of picking a 6.5" driver, which would allow a higher cross to the tweeter and cover more octaves with one single driver.
Adding the NHT on the side would mean a larger box. There's one limitation (which also eliminates the Stella Light from my options): height.
The speaker can't be higher than my version of the 2-way: 21 inches.
My friend suggested doing the frontal baffle less tall: 15.5" x 10". That was the model you can see on his site. What would grow is the back length, to accommodate the NHTs. The large woofers would be on the inside, or they would reflect on the walls.
I can't go higher in the box dimension, because it would interfere with my video projector's screen.
wideband 8" can help to tie to a tweeter.
usually yes tradeoff is less bass.
within reason or generalized manner.
once a driver starts moving towards
bass. the inductance of the coil gonna
make tradoffs to highend. and heavy cones
play into the response.
and yes that was my thing making things deeper
for volume. or wider baffle which actually helps
get midrange to be flatter.
baffle size is easy with 1:6 ratio based on woofer
size. aka golden ratio. 1.614
usually round off to no decimal for simplicity
usually yes tradeoff is less bass.
within reason or generalized manner.
once a driver starts moving towards
bass. the inductance of the coil gonna
make tradoffs to highend. and heavy cones
play into the response.
and yes that was my thing making things deeper
for volume. or wider baffle which actually helps
get midrange to be flatter.
baffle size is easy with 1:6 ratio based on woofer
size. aka golden ratio. 1.614
usually round off to no decimal for simplicity
Which is better for measurements: ARTA or Soundeasy? Of course I can't afford Clio 🙂
Most wideband 8" I've seen couldn't stand high power, and were not too good off axis.
My friend's cones were quite different for the 8" and 10" woofers. He used rather heavy paper pulp cones, that were vacuum pressed. Smooth at the front and corrugated on the back. Much less resonant that any other material. Maybe that allowed it going higher and have better off-axis response, which is the problem of cone-drivers.
Let me do the measurements of the drivers and see what I get.
I do want to learn to make measurements to test several drivers I have accumulated over the years (including some Dynaudios) and try some things, and learn learn learn.
REW is.
Visaton have also waveguides https://www.visaton.de/sites/default/files/dd_product/Waveguide_5175_5176_0.pdf can SB tweeters fit to them, you need to check.
Here you can find information where to order waveguide for moust pomising tweeter for filtering at 1-1.5 kHz SB26: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...uides-for-cnc-3d-printing.318190/post-7318610
That picture looks like the SB29RDCN, not either of the SB21's that I see for sale at Madisound. The SB29RDCN is glued to the backcup whereas some of the SB tweeters have a removeable faceplate and can be used with the DIY 3D printed waveguides. I believe the SB21RDC has a removeable faceplate that will work whereas the SB21RDCN will not.
Yes, the WG would be for the SB21. I was just thinking if the smaller RDCN would accept a WG too without removing the front plate.
This thread is becoming a ramble into the endless options to build an 8" plus small tweeter...
The original problem seems to be a straightforward replacement of a 94mm 3/4 or 1" tweeter in an 8" closed box design.
The 3/4" tweeter thing has been done endlessly and successfully:
The trick is a well-behaved bass with a natural 3kHz roll-off, allied to a 2nd or 3rd order 3kHz tweeter crossover in negative polarity. It corrects the time alignment problem with 8" bass. Very BBC.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/wharfedale-shelton-xp2-a-minor-classic-imo.314732/
Boxsim 1.2 and 2.0 simulators and projects available here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/boxsim-full-system-design-from-visaton-free.267787/page-2
I would suggest you keep the original 8" bass and modify the tweeter crossover for the Morel MDT29, which is a competent 94 mm tweeter to start with. Though I don't like fabric domes much myself.
I would be interested to see your drivers and crossover rather than play a guessing game. Your Vifa NE225W-08 idea is a subwoofer not a midbass, of course, and was thus a silly idea. Hope it helps.
The original problem seems to be a straightforward replacement of a 94mm 3/4 or 1" tweeter in an 8" closed box design.
The 3/4" tweeter thing has been done endlessly and successfully:
The trick is a well-behaved bass with a natural 3kHz roll-off, allied to a 2nd or 3rd order 3kHz tweeter crossover in negative polarity. It corrects the time alignment problem with 8" bass. Very BBC.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/wharfedale-shelton-xp2-a-minor-classic-imo.314732/
Boxsim 1.2 and 2.0 simulators and projects available here:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/boxsim-full-system-design-from-visaton-free.267787/page-2
I would suggest you keep the original 8" bass and modify the tweeter crossover for the Morel MDT29, which is a competent 94 mm tweeter to start with. Though I don't like fabric domes much myself.
I would be interested to see your drivers and crossover rather than play a guessing game. Your Vifa NE225W-08 idea is a subwoofer not a midbass, of course, and was thus a silly idea. Hope it helps.
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Other than Peerless deciding for some reason to call this a subwoofer it is a woofer, of course, and not a silly idea. However, it may not work as well as some other 8" drivers, but that is a different issue.
Per Pete Schumacher in 2018 "I've used the NE225 as a woofer in a 2-way and its measured midrange distortion is among the lowest of any woofer I've ever seen. For a driver touted as a "sub" it's motor design is incredible."
Thanks, your thoughts were what made me start on this trip. That and my friend, the original designer, passing away.
He didn't approve on the MDT29 when he once listened to it, and he commented there was a "hole" in the áudio. If I knew better I should have asked more about it. But we were going to a total upgrade to the speakers, with a new pair of 8" drivers, certainly more improved than mine, and cross it to the SB29, which he measured and approved.
Unfortunately fate got in the middle, and I am now alone on this quest, with very little knowledge of my own.
I would have bought another pair of SB29 ring domes instead of the SB21, which I bought only because the front plate was 92mm and fitted flat on the front bafle. The SB29 would need router adjustment.
But I have the smallish SB29 RDNC, and I'm trying to imagine how to secure that smaller diameter tweet in the larger hole I have.
Now let's try to imagine what hole my friend was talking about, that (my guess) the Morel was causing.
Why I say that? Look at the (bad quality) FR response curve I could get from Morel. They don't show it, but the resonant frequency is at 900Hz. And as they don't show we can't know how high it is. If the original tweeter was (probably) crossed at 2000Hz then there would be hole to listen to between 1KHz and 2KHz.
So my bet is the SB21 might be a better choice than the Morel because there wouldn't be a 5dB dip between 1KHz and 2KHz to make things messy at the cross point.
All this I will try to measure on my tests. Particularly on how high this 8" can reach from different angles.
Attachments
from Parts Express Forum
Pete Schumacher
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/43263-minibyzy-mini-byzantium-build-thread
NE225W-04
see page 2
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/54666-zaph-posted-some-new-test-data
"
Pete Schumacher replied
01-05-2013, 07:18 PM
Re: Zaph posted some new test data
"Of those three, I've only used the Vifa 8" NE225W-04. Amazing midrange reproduction and a ruler flat impedance profile. And while some have slammed the bass performance due to the voice coil offset and loss of linear Xmax, bass performance under music conditions as a woofer in a two-way crossed around 1000Hz is very, very good. I just wish the 10 and 12 inch versions had a bit more sensitivity."
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1331674-cabinet-for-ne225w-04
"We used that in a 1.2 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 32Hz."
post 26 and 28 NE225w-04 RS28F
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/...eck-sounded-like-music-not-loudspeakers/page2
try a low res freq (fs) tweeter
Pete Schumacher
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/43263-minibyzy-mini-byzantium-build-thread
NE225W-04
see page 2
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/54666-zaph-posted-some-new-test-data
"
Pete Schumacher replied
01-05-2013, 07:18 PM
Re: Zaph posted some new test data
"Of those three, I've only used the Vifa 8" NE225W-04. Amazing midrange reproduction and a ruler flat impedance profile. And while some have slammed the bass performance due to the voice coil offset and loss of linear Xmax, bass performance under music conditions as a woofer in a two-way crossed around 1000Hz is very, very good. I just wish the 10 and 12 inch versions had a bit more sensitivity."
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1331674-cabinet-for-ne225w-04
"We used that in a 1.2 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 32Hz."
post 26 and 28 NE225w-04 RS28F
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/...eck-sounded-like-music-not-loudspeakers/page2
try a low res freq (fs) tweeter
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