Bose was ahead of the curve when it comes to mass marketing audio electronics in the modern era. They still rode the wave of snobbish hi-fi from back in the day but offered modern products that appeal to the masses. It's 100% snake oil I agree but it worked great. It's nothing like hi-fi from back in the day. It's marketed to morons.
Products like the Wave Radio were the precursor to the tiny bluetooth speakers of today. Like these tiny speakers, it employed clever technology to get the most out of a small package. Such products will never be more than a novelty to people like me, but the Wave Radio is decent as a table radio (forget about the price) and some of those tiny speakers are damn loud. None of it is a replacement for a real hi-fi system to me though.
As far as the Lifestyles, 100% snake oil crapola. I have only heard ONE system that didn't sound muffled, garbled, and distorted; and it was set up by an actual Bose technician that came to the guy's house. He spent well over a thousand dollars on his Bose stuff, which admittedly did work well with his TV set, but it required all Bose electronics and professional setup. That doesn't seem very consumer friendly to me, but whatever.
Products like the Wave Radio were the precursor to the tiny bluetooth speakers of today. Like these tiny speakers, it employed clever technology to get the most out of a small package. Such products will never be more than a novelty to people like me, but the Wave Radio is decent as a table radio (forget about the price) and some of those tiny speakers are damn loud. None of it is a replacement for a real hi-fi system to me though.
As far as the Lifestyles, 100% snake oil crapola. I have only heard ONE system that didn't sound muffled, garbled, and distorted; and it was set up by an actual Bose technician that came to the guy's house. He spent well over a thousand dollars on his Bose stuff, which admittedly did work well with his TV set, but it required all Bose electronics and professional setup. That doesn't seem very consumer friendly to me, but whatever.
And before you think I'm a hardcore hater, I've reverse engineered many audio products, including tabletop stereos and several Bose products. The key to the "too good to be true" sound from remarkably economical products is sound processing. They all have hard wired (analog or digital) filters in them. When properly applied, these filters can balance the sound as well as wring the last decibel out of the product.
This was not lost on me. I had my "how did they do it?" moment with a Magnavox stereo I pulled out of the dumpster. Hard wired equalizer and TDAxxx amplifier drove small mediocre speakers with a surprisingly balanced and clear sound. I applied the same technology to my 8" two ways. I equalized the bass to 40 Hz and cascaded that with a sixth order 20 Hz high pass filter. It cleaned the sound all the way up and allowed the speakers to play noticeably louder with more balanced sound. Win, win, win.
That's probably hi-fi heresy but it sure works.
This was not lost on me. I had my "how did they do it?" moment with a Magnavox stereo I pulled out of the dumpster. Hard wired equalizer and TDAxxx amplifier drove small mediocre speakers with a surprisingly balanced and clear sound. I applied the same technology to my 8" two ways. I equalized the bass to 40 Hz and cascaded that with a sixth order 20 Hz high pass filter. It cleaned the sound all the way up and allowed the speakers to play noticeably louder with more balanced sound. Win, win, win.
That's probably hi-fi heresy but it sure works.
Speaking of heresy! I got one of the klipsch One II when they were still in stock for $100 (or so, cant remember exactly)…….dang thing bumps!
list was like $449.99 or some such thing…… made in china, not worth list price but definately worth $100.
Moral of the story is sometimes one can benefit from failed snake oil attempts by shopping the bargain/close out bin.
list was like $449.99 or some such thing…… made in china, not worth list price but definately worth $100.
Moral of the story is sometimes one can benefit from failed snake oil attempts by shopping the bargain/close out bin.
Attachments
Too late for that. 🤣
You don't see technical achievement in those features, and customer benefit in their result?
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Of course I do. I used those features in my own design! A real snob would turn their nose up at such measures. Some people "think" that tone controls can only do harm. They would never condone equalizing their precious speakers, which are supposed to be magically flat in all applications by fiat.
I’m a bit confused, then. Are you saying that you do see worthwhile benefit in Bose products for certain consumer needs?
Some Bose products are better than others. What I object to is the Wave Radio being marketed as a replacement for a component system (which was popular with consumers at the time). I clearly remember the marketing campaign. It is actually a very nice table radio/CD player, head and shoulders above other similar products of its time, a quality piece with room filling sound. I think it's deceptive to market it as something it's not to a group of consumers that don't know any better. But I'm an engineer and not a marketing guy. I think a manufacturer with integrity could have run an honest marketing campaign.
The Lifestyle is a great idea but certainly not what it's hyped up to be, and way too fiddly for its intended demographic. I guess if you have lots of money to buy mediocre equipment and then pay a wizard a fortune to set it up in your house it's OK. Like I said I only have heard one that sounded acceptable, and the guy had to pay to get it set up.
Bose stuff today is all about media compatibility and it's pretty cool I guess but just not my cup of tea. I don't care at all about video, and I have bluetooth and a basic DAC in my otherwise all analog (digitally controlled) equipment. My stuff has on board digitally controlled relays and actual analog potentiometers, because that's how I like it.
The Lifestyle is a great idea but certainly not what it's hyped up to be, and way too fiddly for its intended demographic. I guess if you have lots of money to buy mediocre equipment and then pay a wizard a fortune to set it up in your house it's OK. Like I said I only have heard one that sounded acceptable, and the guy had to pay to get it set up.
Bose stuff today is all about media compatibility and it's pretty cool I guess but just not my cup of tea. I don't care at all about video, and I have bluetooth and a basic DAC in my otherwise all analog (digitally controlled) equipment. My stuff has on board digitally controlled relays and actual analog potentiometers, because that's how I like it.
So if considering inflation as you mentioned, I'm selling that Dual 1009F turntable dirt cheap.
Because in 1968 it sold for $99, and in today's money would be $835.
And today, after restoring/servicing it, I'm asking $350.
(including fine Stanton cartridge, new replacement spindles, a few mechanism replacement parts, hours spent professionally servicing it, and a newly manufactured/improved cartridge carrier - total cost to me of about $170)
My profit would be a measily $180., but someone would own a fine, reliable machine to play records on.
Seems like only a tiny few who understood and appreciated good equipment would bite at the chance to own it.
And I realize that.
Until then, it will sit on my service shelf covered up, waiting for a new home.
May I offer some words of advice? Purchasers aren’t taking into account the inflation adjusted value for a product which was produced in 1968, unless it’s a financial instrument. Most products are considered to lose value as they age, not gain value. Yes, there are some exceptions, such as classic cars. Also, purchasers are comparing (as best they can) what $350 buys them in your vintage turntable, versus what that same amount buys them in a new (and, newer technology) turntable and cartridge. You can bet that few, if any, of those in the market for a $350 turntable has the appreciation for this 55 year old unit which you do. Finally, and perhaps, the most key truth to keep in mind if you wish to successfully sell your Dual turntable is that it’s only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, not what it means to you in terms of your parts costs, labor or emotional appreciation/attachment. If it hasn’t sold within an acceptable period, then you likely either haven’t sufficiently made potential buyers aware of it, or you simply need to lower it’s asking price. Perhaps, drastically so. The easiest way to zero in on approximately where it’s price needs to be is if you can find listings of the successful selling price for similar units.
A tangential story: There is an acre size plot of land for sale in my middle-class neighborhood which has been for sale for at least the past 28 years! Why? Because the owner has always asked too much for it. Seemingly, just waiting however long it takes for the right sucker to come along and overpay for it. He has increased the asking price over those years rather than reduce it, so that it now sells for twice what it did 28 years ago. Shockingly, it continues to remain unsold.
A tangential story: There is an acre size plot of land for sale in my middle-class neighborhood which has been for sale for at least the past 28 years! Why? Because the owner has always asked too much for it. Seemingly, just waiting however long it takes for the right sucker to come along and overpay for it. He has increased the asking price over those years rather than reduce it, so that it now sells for twice what it did 28 years ago. Shockingly, it continues to remain unsold.
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@Ken Newton
I can apprciate your thoughts on the matter of the Dual I have listed on CL.
However, there are also reasons pertaining to my selling price, which is where I base things.
Asides from age, original costs, etc....... there is the Performance factor.
In my final testing before listing it, it came out with flying colors, far beyond what a 'new manufacture' turntable of the same price class has to offer.
True, most people aren't spec-savvy types, and that's fine with me.
This thread started out about 'lies' about marketing something, and with that said, I avoid giving false info when selling something.
My argument here is...... you go ahead and try to find any modern turntable sold these days for $300 or more with the same features, build quality, and performance, in addition to being 'out of the box' like new condition.
If a turntable like it was built today, it would command a price of thousands of dollars.
The Reality is.... you'll likely get a belt-driven manual model, stripped-down single-play flat board clone that wouldn't survive more than a few years of use!
Yes, seems they're all the rage these days. - chalk it up to mass marketing trends, and the age-old myth of "OMG you shouldn't stack records on a 'changer' because it's bad to do!" (which is proven utter BS)
Yes, I'm well aware of the myths, the hype, and the sheepish mindset of modern world, and at times I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle.
But I also know that I'm not alone in my efforts.
I can apprciate your thoughts on the matter of the Dual I have listed on CL.
However, there are also reasons pertaining to my selling price, which is where I base things.
Asides from age, original costs, etc....... there is the Performance factor.
In my final testing before listing it, it came out with flying colors, far beyond what a 'new manufacture' turntable of the same price class has to offer.
True, most people aren't spec-savvy types, and that's fine with me.
This thread started out about 'lies' about marketing something, and with that said, I avoid giving false info when selling something.
My argument here is...... you go ahead and try to find any modern turntable sold these days for $300 or more with the same features, build quality, and performance, in addition to being 'out of the box' like new condition.
If a turntable like it was built today, it would command a price of thousands of dollars.
The Reality is.... you'll likely get a belt-driven manual model, stripped-down single-play flat board clone that wouldn't survive more than a few years of use!
Yes, seems they're all the rage these days. - chalk it up to mass marketing trends, and the age-old myth of "OMG you shouldn't stack records on a 'changer' because it's bad to do!" (which is proven utter BS)
Yes, I'm well aware of the myths, the hype, and the sheepish mindset of modern world, and at times I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle.
But I also know that I'm not alone in my efforts.
“Shouldn’t stack records on a changer…” - well if you do that with an old BSR you end up with a stack of scratched up records. Even if you play ‘em one at a time that zero-compliance ceramic cartridge will wear down the grooves till you have about 15 dB signal to noise ratio.
The death of vinyl was cheap record players.
The death of vinyl was cheap record players.
@wg_ski
Yes, I agree to a point with you about that.
However, it's more of a worry to those 'perfectionist audiophiles', who tend to fuss over things.
Indeed, even a single-play new Crosley crapola player tracks at 6 grams with a horrible tonearm.
But listen, I've got records that my parents played quite a bit through the 60's and 70's on an RCA Victor console stereo.
Dinner music, Connie Francis, Frank Sinatra, etc....stacked sometimes.
That Studiomatic changer tracked at 5 grams.
And if I play those well-used records on my good system today, they sound just fine.
It all depends on how well the player was designed, maintained, and cared for.
And besides, modern records have a raised label area and rim to prevent grooves from damage, so the stacking argument is just hype.
Yes, I agree to a point with you about that.
However, it's more of a worry to those 'perfectionist audiophiles', who tend to fuss over things.
Indeed, even a single-play new Crosley crapola player tracks at 6 grams with a horrible tonearm.
But listen, I've got records that my parents played quite a bit through the 60's and 70's on an RCA Victor console stereo.
Dinner music, Connie Francis, Frank Sinatra, etc....stacked sometimes.
That Studiomatic changer tracked at 5 grams.
And if I play those well-used records on my good system today, they sound just fine.
It all depends on how well the player was designed, maintained, and cared for.
And besides, modern records have a raised label area and rim to prevent grooves from damage, so the stacking argument is just hype.
Hipsters, may be the single most egregious example of technology ignorant buyers who have a significant amount of disposable income to waste.
Nobody wants to buy overpriced junk, but most of those who don't delve deeper into the product before buying it (usually due to time constraints) buy overpriced junk as a result.
In case of components from BOSE such people, who read at most one or the other test report, always assume that they have acquired the best available device after purchase (BOSE sold the highest number of loudspeakers in Germany after the Acoustimass series was released).
Only in very rare cases, when I had the HiFi Shop in the 90s, did users realize afterwards that they could have bought something much better for the same price.
Consumers don't have any expectation of products lasting anything past ten years. Hi-fis from the 1950s and 1960s were built to last a lifetime and were so simple a chimp could service them.
Many people don't know the value of quality. Like my neighbor's 300D, it's just an old Mercedes to some but it's a lifetime vehicle to others. I don't believe anybody born past 1990 has any appreciation for products that are built to last a lifetime.
Technology always advances at a rapid pace. Those hi-fis of the 50s and 60s were obsolete within 10-15 years of their manufacture regardless of their build quality. Anything from the 1950s especially would be nothing more than a curiosity, a museum piece.
Many people don't know the value of quality. Like my neighbor's 300D, it's just an old Mercedes to some but it's a lifetime vehicle to others. I don't believe anybody born past 1990 has any appreciation for products that are built to last a lifetime.
Technology always advances at a rapid pace. Those hi-fis of the 50s and 60s were obsolete within 10-15 years of their manufacture regardless of their build quality. Anything from the 1950s especially would be nothing more than a curiosity, a museum piece.
I beg to differ and as the producer of a number of human beings born after 1990 not in a bad position to offer a small sample. My piano was made in 1972. Two of my daughters want it (I learned on, they learned on it and now brood 2 are learning on it) and it's a slow race to see who has a big enough place first to house it ! It takes time to teach the young the meaning of quality and requires parents who know the meaning of quality. The societal changes in the 60s and 70s produced the first disposable generation and their children have sometimes picked this up. Kids are contrary so they often go the opposite way, which is some of the fun of parenting.
I have a lot more faith in the younger generation than some, but could be my age.
I have a lot more faith in the younger generation than some, but could be my age.
The master of this was Henry Kloss (Acoustic Research, KLH, Advent, Cambridge, Tivoli), and in a good way.
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I do too. I meet smart young people. They face a much different world than I did. And it's their world and their problems now.
The world is in turmoil now, just like it was when I was a young adult. I wish them luck.
Yes , the young are smart. They are realistic. They don't even bother themselves to expect quality.
Consume and upgrade , Dispose and consume even more (on credit). There are very few "durable" items at Walmart or other big box outlets.
I have accepted that anything I buy is disposable. I 'll buy a saw to build some speakers and save the receipt to return it when I'm done.
Why bother keeping it when it won't last a year ?
I don't let name brands like Bose, Dell , Polk fool me. All Asian junk where all they have is marketing and the brand
recognition from "the good old days". As far as the being lied to .... "race to the bottom of the barrel" ??? We are nearly there.
Unfortunately , the demand for quality is a small market. This is why you need to spend 1K$ to get a quality set of speakers.
200-400$ for a smart speaker ?? total junk (made for 20$ + forced labor) ! Your paying big $$ to have some greedy corp. monetize your "inner sanctum" in return
for frivolous conveniences. With "smart" TV's and speakers you also allow them the ability to "brick" what you paid for. So , you can
buy a new one. Forced consumerism. I guess IOT is smart ... smart for them.
If the young adults would just reject this business model , they would be better off. And government does not even want to protect us
from this type of corporate fascism. PS - google is WAY more of a monopoly than AT&T was (I remember that one ... I'm old)
How this plays out is totally in OUR hands. Most of what we buy that has software is just a fancy lease ... we don't own it.
Consume and upgrade , Dispose and consume even more (on credit). There are very few "durable" items at Walmart or other big box outlets.
I have accepted that anything I buy is disposable. I 'll buy a saw to build some speakers and save the receipt to return it when I'm done.
Why bother keeping it when it won't last a year ?
I don't let name brands like Bose, Dell , Polk fool me. All Asian junk where all they have is marketing and the brand
recognition from "the good old days". As far as the being lied to .... "race to the bottom of the barrel" ??? We are nearly there.
Unfortunately , the demand for quality is a small market. This is why you need to spend 1K$ to get a quality set of speakers.
200-400$ for a smart speaker ?? total junk (made for 20$ + forced labor) ! Your paying big $$ to have some greedy corp. monetize your "inner sanctum" in return
for frivolous conveniences. With "smart" TV's and speakers you also allow them the ability to "brick" what you paid for. So , you can
buy a new one. Forced consumerism. I guess IOT is smart ... smart for them.
If the young adults would just reject this business model , they would be better off. And government does not even want to protect us
from this type of corporate fascism. PS - google is WAY more of a monopoly than AT&T was (I remember that one ... I'm old)
How this plays out is totally in OUR hands. Most of what we buy that has software is just a fancy lease ... we don't own it.
It's a fair point, that it can be hard to find durable stuff. My old fridge (now in use in the garage) I've had for over 50 years and it wasn't new when I got it, we have 40 year old freezers. After a kitchen refit the smart modern fridge died after 7 years and could not be repaired... No one seemed surprised. Stuff isn't expected to last now, it seems...
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