I was idly reading Robert Harley's review from some time back in The Absolute Sound (I wrote for TAS during the Harry Pearson days) of the Wilson Benesch Eminence, which can be yours for $232,000 the pair.
That review reminded me (I had reviewed three or four different Wilson Benesch models when I was writing for Stereophile over the course of 17 years) of something that I had forgotten:
That in many of their loudspeakers, including their TOTL Eminence, Wilson Benesch connects the midrange directly to the amplifier, letting the midrange "Run Wild."
Which means that the midrange (or a woofer-mid--WB's midranges are 7 inches) has to cope with all the bass the amplifier is pumping out, while the roll-off of the midrange or woofer-mid is at the top of its passband is purely mechanical and not electrical.
I recall being told the same thing about big Egglestonworks multi-way speakers.
I also recall being told that the very very nice ASA--Atelier de Synergie Acoustique--2-way monitors had a network only on the tweeter, and that the Dynaudio woofer-mids ran wild.
What I plan to do over the weekend is hot-wire the Eton 5-312 woofer-mid in my current prototype directly to the speaker terminals, with the wire running to the crossover sending a signal to the crossover, but with only the tweeter connected to the crossover.
Obviously, a woofer-mid in this circumstance is different from a "pure" midrange (I recall that WB's midranges use lighter cones than the same-size woofer-mids), but what I am describing is just about the same thing, as far as I know, as the ASA.
Furthermore, when I am breaking in woofer-mids, I run them wild in a literal shoebox (Kuru shoes) as an enclosure, and the upper-midrange performance of the Eton 5-312 so impressed me that I video'ed it! I urge everybody to listen to this:
In any event, Kate St. John has a lovely voice and a really subtle musical intelligence, and I give her two albums Indescribable Night and Second Sight my highest recommendations.
I tried to upload the album cover image, but the upload function was not cooperative, sorry.
So, just curious what other peoples' experiences have been, and I will update after I do my little experiment.
Thanks much,
john
That review reminded me (I had reviewed three or four different Wilson Benesch models when I was writing for Stereophile over the course of 17 years) of something that I had forgotten:
That in many of their loudspeakers, including their TOTL Eminence, Wilson Benesch connects the midrange directly to the amplifier, letting the midrange "Run Wild."
Which means that the midrange (or a woofer-mid--WB's midranges are 7 inches) has to cope with all the bass the amplifier is pumping out, while the roll-off of the midrange or woofer-mid is at the top of its passband is purely mechanical and not electrical.
I recall being told the same thing about big Egglestonworks multi-way speakers.
I also recall being told that the very very nice ASA--Atelier de Synergie Acoustique--2-way monitors had a network only on the tweeter, and that the Dynaudio woofer-mids ran wild.
What I plan to do over the weekend is hot-wire the Eton 5-312 woofer-mid in my current prototype directly to the speaker terminals, with the wire running to the crossover sending a signal to the crossover, but with only the tweeter connected to the crossover.
Obviously, a woofer-mid in this circumstance is different from a "pure" midrange (I recall that WB's midranges use lighter cones than the same-size woofer-mids), but what I am describing is just about the same thing, as far as I know, as the ASA.
Furthermore, when I am breaking in woofer-mids, I run them wild in a literal shoebox (Kuru shoes) as an enclosure, and the upper-midrange performance of the Eton 5-312 so impressed me that I video'ed it! I urge everybody to listen to this:
In any event, Kate St. John has a lovely voice and a really subtle musical intelligence, and I give her two albums Indescribable Night and Second Sight my highest recommendations.
I tried to upload the album cover image, but the upload function was not cooperative, sorry.
So, just curious what other peoples' experiences have been, and I will update after I do my little experiment.
Thanks much,
john
Are you suggesting there is a benefit to running woofers without a crossover? Here is what their website has to say.
Hi.
You appear to be quoting from the Wilson Benesch website. I believe that they specifically are talking about their designs with more than two drivers. Therefore, woofer/midrange/tweeter.
I tried as hard as I could to express myself clearly. But I admit it's a bit confusing, because making an analogy from Wilson Benesch to a 2-way is far from perfect. Same for Egglston.
THAT'S WHY I also said that, as far as I know, ASA, the French boutique 2-way monitor loudspeaker builders whose products I was very familiar with from a lot of hands-on and review experience 25 years ago (I believe they are still in business) let their WOOFER-MIDS run wild, while having simple networks on the tweeters.
So, no, I am not (precisely) suggesting there is a benefit to running "woofers" without a crossover.
However, based on my experience with ASA loudspeakers, I think that there should be some advantages to running a WOOFER-MID wild, without a crossover leg, and letting its mechanical performance make for the hand-off to the tweeter.
I also assume that, as in most engineering problems, "When you squeeze it here, it just bulges there."
If running woofer-mids wild was "all benefits and no drawbacks," would not everyone be doing it?
My intuition is that to pull it off, you have to have a really wonderful (translation: expensive) woofer-mid. Which rules out all the cost-driven 2-way designs with $24 woofers and $17 tweeters.
I just priced out an Audio Technology woofer-mid: $425 each, plus shipping. I paid $180 for the (smaller) Eton 5-312.
BTW, ASA asked reviewers not to open up the loudspeaker cabinets or take out the drivers, and I respected that; so, to a degree, what I say about "networks only on the tweeters" is scuttlebutt. But I also saw some FR graphs in French audio magazines that suggested that the woofer did not have a network, and I heard it from another US critic that he had heard it from a French critic. FWIW & YMMV.
Hope that clarifies things.
So, let me try to fit this experiment in this wknd.
ciao,
john
You appear to be quoting from the Wilson Benesch website. I believe that they specifically are talking about their designs with more than two drivers. Therefore, woofer/midrange/tweeter.
I tried as hard as I could to express myself clearly. But I admit it's a bit confusing, because making an analogy from Wilson Benesch to a 2-way is far from perfect. Same for Egglston.
THAT'S WHY I also said that, as far as I know, ASA, the French boutique 2-way monitor loudspeaker builders whose products I was very familiar with from a lot of hands-on and review experience 25 years ago (I believe they are still in business) let their WOOFER-MIDS run wild, while having simple networks on the tweeters.
So, no, I am not (precisely) suggesting there is a benefit to running "woofers" without a crossover.
However, based on my experience with ASA loudspeakers, I think that there should be some advantages to running a WOOFER-MID wild, without a crossover leg, and letting its mechanical performance make for the hand-off to the tweeter.
I also assume that, as in most engineering problems, "When you squeeze it here, it just bulges there."
If running woofer-mids wild was "all benefits and no drawbacks," would not everyone be doing it?
My intuition is that to pull it off, you have to have a really wonderful (translation: expensive) woofer-mid. Which rules out all the cost-driven 2-way designs with $24 woofers and $17 tweeters.
I just priced out an Audio Technology woofer-mid: $425 each, plus shipping. I paid $180 for the (smaller) Eton 5-312.
BTW, ASA asked reviewers not to open up the loudspeaker cabinets or take out the drivers, and I respected that; so, to a degree, what I say about "networks only on the tweeters" is scuttlebutt. But I also saw some FR graphs in French audio magazines that suggested that the woofer did not have a network, and I heard it from another US critic that he had heard it from a French critic. FWIW & YMMV.
Hope that clarifies things.
So, let me try to fit this experiment in this wknd.
ciao,
john
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Thanks for the laugh!
But I want the midrange lean and agile! And, in time and in tune!
BTW, the original 1671 Villiers, Duke of Buckingham play that is from was making fun of the contrived plots of the big shot Poet Laureate Dryden. And it obviously resonated with a lot of people, because it entered the language.
Supposedly, one of the internal justifications at ASA for no network on the woofer was that they could then lavish all that money on the tweeter capacitors.
You can buy two capacitors, 6.2 and 18uf, and pay $10, or pay $110.
So, that is in the back of my alleged mind.
BTW, thinking it through, I think I will have to cut the tweeter level in the crossover a bit because the overlap past the crossover point will otherwise be too additive. The Eton 5-312 has a bit of a bump between 4,000 and 5,000Hz, on-axis. Which I am sure helps it when it working solo and trying to reproduce Kate St. John's lovely voice.
ciao,
john
But I want the midrange lean and agile! And, in time and in tune!
BTW, the original 1671 Villiers, Duke of Buckingham play that is from was making fun of the contrived plots of the big shot Poet Laureate Dryden. And it obviously resonated with a lot of people, because it entered the language.
Supposedly, one of the internal justifications at ASA for no network on the woofer was that they could then lavish all that money on the tweeter capacitors.
You can buy two capacitors, 6.2 and 18uf, and pay $10, or pay $110.
So, that is in the back of my alleged mind.
BTW, thinking it through, I think I will have to cut the tweeter level in the crossover a bit because the overlap past the crossover point will otherwise be too additive. The Eton 5-312 has a bit of a bump between 4,000 and 5,000Hz, on-axis. Which I am sure helps it when it working solo and trying to reproduce Kate St. John's lovely voice.
ciao,
john
FYI: Reference 3A (originally made in France, now Canada) run their proprietary 8 inch woofer without a crossover in their 2 way speakers.
Had a pair of their MM de Capos back in the 1990s. A very good sounding speaker.
Had a pair of their MM de Capos back in the 1990s. A very good sounding speaker.
Thank you for that data point. I heard one of their speakers at an audio show, probably nearly 20 years ago in San Francisco. Wonderful on vocals. I had the boxed set of raw tracks, including some vocals-only tracks, from Pet Sounds. People went crazy.
cheers,
john
If you have a woofer or midrange that has a well behaved roll-off at top you can use it as a 2nd order LP. Then the tweeter has to be brought in at that natural roll-off. One would think a 2nd order HP on the tweeter would be a match, but in the field you typically see a 1st order.
The idea being flatter phase response, in an effort to keep the harmonics inside the envelope.
A price is paid in the size of the sweet spot where the woofer & tweeter integrate given a typically higher XO.
I had a very nice set of little Royds that did the trade-offs nicely.
In a midrange one can introduce a 2nd order HP with a sealed enclosure.
All speakers are a big set of compromises. These give up potential levels and distortion will rise quicker as you turn up the wick. In the midrange, and in the tweeter (given the common 1st order).
Simpler XOs may sound better in the eye of the designer and with fewer parts can be less pricey (why it is often seen in inexpensive loudspeakers (often with little consideration of sonics)..
Dyna A25 (and the modern A26 interpretations) are another example.
dave
The idea being flatter phase response, in an effort to keep the harmonics inside the envelope.
A price is paid in the size of the sweet spot where the woofer & tweeter integrate given a typically higher XO.
I had a very nice set of little Royds that did the trade-offs nicely.
In a midrange one can introduce a 2nd order HP with a sealed enclosure.
All speakers are a big set of compromises. These give up potential levels and distortion will rise quicker as you turn up the wick. In the midrange, and in the tweeter (given the common 1st order).
Simpler XOs may sound better in the eye of the designer and with fewer parts can be less pricey (why it is often seen in inexpensive loudspeakers (often with little consideration of sonics)..
Dyna A25 (and the modern A26 interpretations) are another example.
dave
Your recording does sound good! You should ask John Atkinson to run some measurements on this shoebox!
As planet10 said, the smooth roll-off on top is one of the important factors to making it work. This isn't always viewed as "wonderful" these days, since it can involve softer/older cone materials, glues, formers, etc., and well-controlled breakup to smooth response and broaden dispersion.
The trend in higher end midranges seems to be toward harder, more pistonic moving systems that often have a nasty peak above their intended use range.
https://www.eton-gmbh.com/fileadmin...Datenblaetter/SYMPHONY_II_5-312_C8_25_HEX.pdf
I don't really think that this is a suitable mid/woofer to run without some help. If you want something that you'd notice, it would work though.
You'll notice that bump and how it changes the overall tonal balance.
I have been doing that, not using any crossover on midbass, when its free of breakups, otherwise you will hear nasty breakups, which resonate.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/viral-projects-sort-of.351475/post-6135094
In this particular mtm, when i added coil to midbasses, it messed up phase. Without it, phase is smooth.
I have many other examples like that.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/viral-projects-sort-of.351475/post-6135094
In this particular mtm, when i added coil to midbasses, it messed up phase. Without it, phase is smooth.
I have many other examples like that.
This particular peerless worked very well with hiquphone tweeter, in mtm, great sounding and well measuring.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/current-best-5-midrange-driver.378212/post-6815971
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/current-best-5-midrange-driver.378212/post-6815971
EPI speakers also run the woofer wide open. They are wonderful sounding speakers.
Most all of Winslow Burhoe designs have the woofers ‘run wild’ and having a set of Burhoe acoustics ‘Blues’ (10” three way) in action myself, I can assure everyone they are not lean nor thin actually quite stout and dynamic imho.
If you research Burhoes work its quite interesting. 😎
Yes - most of the minimalist 2-way crossovers use a single inductor on the midwoofer. The first order electrical rolloff starting at 200-400 Hz provides a nice adjustment for 4-pi to 2-pi radiation, and then that first order rolloff combines with the woofer's natural rolloff to result in a second or third order rolloff at the high frequency crossover region, usually somewhere in the 2k - 4k region. Selecting the right woofer is probably the most important part of the design process... The old school designers were very skilled at applying various varnishes and glues to paper cones to tailor the response to just what they wanted. Some polymer cone drivers were designed to have this kind of response.
Without a series inductor, the system will only sound balanced when it is flush or nearly flush with the back wall.... unless of course you manage to find a woofer that has an inherent rolloff starting at 400 Hz or so. I have not seen one.
So I think it will be challenging to get a good sounding 2-way speaker with a midwoofer running wild.
Thanks for your thoughtful posting. Yes, the eye of the designer. Confirmation bias. I had known about the Dynaco A25, but I forgot to list it with the ASAs. BTW, Ejvind Skaaning, I have been told, started out as the subcontractor for the company that built the woofers for the company that had the contract to build the woofers for the A25, and that was the genesis of ScanSpeak. BTW, I have to put a 3rd order on the ribbon tweeter, so... as the Chinese say, Truth will be the Daughter of Time.
amb,
john
Enthusiastic language aside, this is how (nearly all) vintage 1950s pre-rock&roll high-end speakers worked, big "fullrange" driver (100-10000hz) run straight-through, augmented by a tiny driver with 1st-order high-pass filter capacitor. A suitable term for this class of speakers, fullrange straight-through augmented at the top and/or bottom, is F.A.S.T. In audiophile circles, it has long been an open secret that the very highly regarded speakers mentioned in this thread are not the usual "multi-way with crossovers", but instead each a throw-back to the vintage era of FAST. As mentioned already in this thread, stereo imaging (post-vintage-era of course) may not be so-well-served by FAST if crossed low, compared to having first-order both low- and high-pass whose phase offsets sum to cancel each other yielding flat amplitude and phase throughout. The "theory" is a bit subtle; I have confirmed it in practice. Higher order crossovers don't have this "magical" property.
