Hi,
I won't pretend to be an expert like Dave or Scottmoose (or any sort of expert at all), they really do know their stuff. Last year I put a pair of 12pw into cabinets and ran them for a few months as full range, but did feel something was missing. They are fantastic in the bass and mid, but there was a lack of sparkle, symbols, hi hats, etc. didn't have the same impact. My hearing only goes up to 12K now, I cannot hear test tones above that, so it wasn't just that final octave of human hearing up to 20K that was affected. I added a pair of Fostex T90 supertweeters I had knocking around, single capacitor first order crossover at around 7.5K on the Fostex, plus some additional resistance to reduce their level. That helped a great deal. I won't claim they were perfect, far from it, but it was an improvement.
So pleased with the 12pw I've picked up four more and am taking the time to properly build some of Dave's Planet 10 cabinets with rather more care than my previous efforts! I'm trying the 6p and the 7p with them, both those are discontinued, though you can still get hold of them on t'interweb. The 5.3 too is a great little driver once relieved of the bottom end. I would use one of these, or possibly other MA drivers, with the 12pw in your position. But whatever, don't let them go to waste, they are a lovely listen.
cheers,
Charles
I won't pretend to be an expert like Dave or Scottmoose (or any sort of expert at all), they really do know their stuff. Last year I put a pair of 12pw into cabinets and ran them for a few months as full range, but did feel something was missing. They are fantastic in the bass and mid, but there was a lack of sparkle, symbols, hi hats, etc. didn't have the same impact. My hearing only goes up to 12K now, I cannot hear test tones above that, so it wasn't just that final octave of human hearing up to 20K that was affected. I added a pair of Fostex T90 supertweeters I had knocking around, single capacitor first order crossover at around 7.5K on the Fostex, plus some additional resistance to reduce their level. That helped a great deal. I won't claim they were perfect, far from it, but it was an improvement.
So pleased with the 12pw I've picked up four more and am taking the time to properly build some of Dave's Planet 10 cabinets with rather more care than my previous efforts! I'm trying the 6p and the 7p with them, both those are discontinued, though you can still get hold of them on t'interweb. The 5.3 too is a great little driver once relieved of the bottom end. I would use one of these, or possibly other MA drivers, with the 12pw in your position. But whatever, don't let them go to waste, they are a lovely listen.
cheers,
Charles
Cheers Charles, again really appreciate you taking the time to reply - great to hear from someone who's been on what sounds like a very similar path to me. I've read so much good about the 12PWs so I think whatever I do it will revolve around the them. I suspect when I get on to building cabinets, as it will be such a big project for me, I'll end up going for a tried and tested Markaudio pairing as you suggest - the Nanotyrannus posted earlier looks like a good fit for me. It's been worth kicking the tyres a bit on the Satori idea as it's such a lovely tweeter in its own right, but great to have wiser heads on hand to steer me right.
Pat
Pat
Dimensions: 732 x 190 x 210mm
If we assime 18mm material and no braces we have: 18.5 litre ML-TL just under 0.7 meters long with a 268 cm2 cross-section.
The box is small for the A12pw, but Scott may be able to come up with a terminus size for the box.
Sealed, it is almost a perfect volume for max flat response, F3 70, F10 40.
dave
T90 are very pricey. I have numbers of the much cheaper variation if anyone wants to try this out without the expense. Firing the tweeter up or backwards is also likely worth playing with.
dave
Unfortunately I the ones I have are the older, smaller stand-mount ones, coming in at something like 550 x 275 x 280, with a 50 x 150 port. Definitely no bracing, but I didn't measure the thickness of the wood - will do next time I open them up. I'm still running them in atm, so can't really tell how they sound yet...
I have been listening to the Alpair 12Pw full range for a while. I plan to try it as a WAW with any of my other full range speakers. I have the Eikona 2 and the Alpair 5.3. I like the midrange and low end better on the A12Pw than the other 2. I also have a pair of A10.3 and Maop7 to try once I put them in enclosures.
Will do - will turn up the volume a bit this evening as well and see what we're sounding like...
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The MAOP 7 paired with the 12PWs is starting to feel like a nice long-term solution for me, so I'll keep an eye out for your thoughts on them. Interesting to hear if they're worth the extra cash over some of the more standard MAs.
Just following up on this for anyone who may be interested. Had a good listening session last night and my general takeaway is that the 12PWs are a really nice driver. John Martyn's Solid Air had a beautiful depth, perhaps lacking a bit of "sit up and take notice" definition, but then the flipside of that is that they are an extremely easy listen. They seemed to really suit jazz, with imaging and dynamics on Kind Of Blue and Journey In Satchidananda that I've never really noticed before.
I'd really like to hear them with something else taking on the higher range but, with many thanks to everyone here for their input (and particularly Dave for advice on tuning the boxes), I don't think I'll be trying to wedge in an unsuitable tweeter anymore. A nice idea I think would be building the folded ML-TL - Dave, do I just email you or Scott about buying the plans for that? - then mixing and matching smaller FRs as wcwc has done above.
Again, thanks for all the input and suggestions for a total novice when it comes to speakers. Much appreciated.
Pat
The base folded ML-TL is a freebie: http://wodendesign.com/downloads/A12pw-folded-MLTL-291015.pdf
For any paid plansets you can mail eithr Scott or myself.
I do have a basik tweak for the A12pw that improves its DDR/capability of reproducing small details.
dave
For any paid plansets you can mail eithr Scott or myself.
I do have a basik tweak for the A12pw that improves its DDR/capability of reproducing small details.
dave
Blimey, once again the generosity in time and expertise on DIY Audio astounds me! I'd happily send on some beers from my brewery by way of thanks for the design - I can't send overseas unfortunately but I think Scott is UK based, so just let me know if you'd like me to send some on Scott.
I'd certainly be interested in the tweak for the 12PWs as well - again more than hapyp to contribute something for your time Dave. I've read an awful lot of the EnABL threads with interest, but wouldn't trust myself to do that without making an awful mess of the drivers...
Pat
I'd certainly be interested in the tweak for the 12PWs as well - again more than hapyp to contribute something for your time Dave. I've read an awful lot of the EnABL threads with interest, but wouldn't trust myself to do that without making an awful mess of the drivers...
Pat
A12pw is underappreciated. I know of no published designs but for mine & Scott’s (likely some).
We think all of those are good. Each has its niche and some will be more suitable for different people.
p10-hifi has a tall MTM (using a Woden specified ML-TL). We started with A7PeN, then awirched to A7.3eN with a little MAOP 7 in between, but with your own XO any number of MA 3-4” drivers or whatever your favorite is. And the big trapezoid Mar-Ken.
Besides the ones that we built (i am listening to them now and they are a gift to anyone can pick them up [not free]), there have been at least 2 ore builds, both documented here. Their comments are very interesting. http://www.planet10-hifi.com///planset/A12pw-A7-MTM-extents.pdf
The other we have built (and Bernie has), and Quattrofish has as well (he later went on to do the MTM).
At some point i would like to see someone so an MTM pair. The midTweeters enclosure has the same footprint, is a folded midTL, and with height adjustment can be used with A5 to A12 depending on what your target is. We also did a standmount version, and the owner loves them. I have at least started a simple CGR version.
Scott has done Nanosaurus, a single A12pw in a short ML-TL, with a varietu of midTweeter boxes and first pass XOs for a range of 3 and 4” MA midTweeters, i am sure A7p could be added.
The above all have a modest cost.
Single driver basic ML-TL (the one we use as a basis of our MTM): http://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-A12pw-MLTL-plan.pdf
Folded version so you can set a midTweeter on top: http://wodendesign.com/downloads/A12pw-folded-MLTL-291015.pdf
We think all of those are good. Each has its niche and some will be more suitable for different people.
p10-hifi has a tall MTM (using a Woden specified ML-TL). We started with A7PeN, then awirched to A7.3eN with a little MAOP 7 in between, but with your own XO any number of MA 3-4” drivers or whatever your favorite is. And the big trapezoid Mar-Ken.
Besides the ones that we built (i am listening to them now and they are a gift to anyone can pick them up [not free]), there have been at least 2 ore builds, both documented here. Their comments are very interesting. http://www.planet10-hifi.com///planset/A12pw-A7-MTM-extents.pdf
The other we have built (and Bernie has), and Quattrofish has as well (he later went on to do the MTM).
At some point i would like to see someone so an MTM pair. The midTweeters enclosure has the same footprint, is a folded midTL, and with height adjustment can be used with A5 to A12 depending on what your target is. We also did a standmount version, and the owner loves them. I have at least started a simple CGR version.
Scott has done Nanosaurus, a single A12pw in a short ML-TL, with a varietu of midTweeter boxes and first pass XOs for a range of 3 and 4” MA midTweeters, i am sure A7p could be added.
The above all have a modest cost.
Single driver basic ML-TL (the one we use as a basis of our MTM): http://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-A12pw-MLTL-plan.pdf
Folded version so you can set a midTweeter on top: http://wodendesign.com/downloads/A12pw-folded-MLTL-291015.pdf
Chiming in to express my continued satisfaction with the 7.3/12pw ML-TL MTMs. Driven by a 60watt LFD integrated amp, they are extraordinary.
The Mar-Kens were very good, perhaps having a slight edge in imaging, but the big MTMs are so rich and effortless in the lower mids and bass that I consider it a good tradeoff. I considered stacking another Mar-Ken for the second 12pw, and they may have been the best of all worlds, but they are too tall for my small room. The MTMs are 4' tall, which is plenty.
Happy to answer any additional questions you might have.
The Mar-Kens were very good, perhaps having a slight edge in imaging, but the big MTMs are so rich and effortless in the lower mids and bass that I consider it a good tradeoff. I considered stacking another Mar-Ken for the second 12pw, and they may have been the best of all worlds, but they are too tall for my small room. The MTMs are 4' tall, which is plenty.
Happy to answer any additional questions you might have.
It is a tiny British manufacturer of MOSFET-based integrated amps, as well as phono stages, cabling, and a few other bits and bobs. Every amp is hand-made by one of the lead engineers, Dr. Richard Bews.
He is a strong believer in the importance of specific components and materials in the overall sound of an amp, so much of the difference between models/generations of his amps has more to do with changes to internal components than radical changes to topology.
I can neither confirm nor deny whether a piece of silver vs copper wire will have much of an impact on the sound of an amp, but I can certainly say that my particular amp, a ZERO Mk. III LE, sounds absolutely fantastic so Bews knows his business (along with Hawksford, his partner).
As you know, I built the passive crossovers for my speakers so I could have fun rolling amps and not have to worry about modifying PLLXO components. I've done a bit of that, but nothing so far has sounded as good as the LFD. Might be time to build one of the Pass Labs designs, or maybe a Neurochrome.